Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

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_Trevor
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Trevor »

Mister Scratch wrote:He should be. His behavior---the Quinn gossip; his l-skinny antics; his condescension and ill-treatment of people in pain; his FARMS writings; his equivocation and hypocrisy regarding Mopologetic financing---doesn't speak very well of him at all. I really think he ought to apologize, and express some guilt and regret over these things.


Well, there is a big difference between being condemned and needing to apologize. I'll be quite frank and say that Dr. Peterson has done a few things that raised my eyebrows. I would not have done them. At the same time, I do not think he is an evil person. The regular characterization of him, his friends, and his organization as sinister is a distortion. I think it fair to say that he has erred in his treatment of some people and in his handling of some situations. He certainly has caused some people pain.

As for the "Mopologetic financing" issue, I simply don't find it that disconcerting. Mormonism is an unusual religion, and it is altogether understandable that it will defend itself and craft its image in such a way as to stave off criticism and derision. And when I say unusual, I do not mean 'beyond the pale,' but likely to attract negative attention. I think Scientology is troubling and disturbing (although I really like Beck), whereas Mormonism these days is, well, quirky and probably not for certain kinds of people... like you and me.

Mister Scratch wrote:Where is the "distortion"? Nothing I have said about him is wrong or false. I also don't think it's really accurate to say that I have focused "exclusively on the negative" regarding DCP. Did you read the posts on the recent thread in which he announced that translation project? Further, I have often praised DCP's writing skills. (He has never had a decent thing to say about me, however. Not one.)

But what, among his apologetic activities, is "positive", Trevor? What fundamental good has come of this?


You make a fine apologist for your own activities (don't we all?). Scratch, I think we both know that you can be perfectly accurate in everything you say and nevertheless distort the truth. You are obviously too sly a fellow to have me believe that you are some kind of rhetorical ingenue. If you have not been exclusively negative regarding DCP, it would probably still be fair to say that the limited praise you have offered has not really tempered your overall campaign to make him look like a world-class schmuck.

What among his Mopologetic activities is positive? I guess that is really a matter of perspective, and I am a lot less likely to find the positive than those who believe in Mormonism. Have you read all of his editor's essays in the FROB? I think there is some worthwhile stuff in there, and he is a good writer. What fundamental good has come of this? Very few people devote their careers to promoting fundamental goods. Why should I expect Dr. Peterson's Mopologetic activities to pass my fundamental good test? If he does not pass it, should he be pilloried?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

For the record, I deny every charge of wrongdoing that Scratch has ever leveled against me.

Does that mean -- as harmony, who doesn't know me from Adam, imagines -- that I've never admitted any mistake, ever? No. It simply means that I deny the crimes and major offenses routinely alleged against me by Scratch. In some cases, they simply didn't happen. In others, they didn't happen as Scratch has characterized them. In yet others, we simply disagree about whether I did was wrong. (Disagreeing with Scratch, I think, is not quite the same thing as claiming infallibility.)

antishock8 wrote:Better than being savaged on a national stage by Robert Spencer by exposing your supposed "expertise" on the subject of Islam.

Other than the limited time, I felt, and continue to feel, quite content with the case I made in my debate with Robert Spencer.

Your derision doesn't bother me in the slightest because (1) I don't take you seriously, (2) I don't take your opinion of me seriously, and (3) I don't take your opinion of Islam seriously. I regard you as an occasionally amusing but malevolent anonymous crank.

antishock8 wrote:Frankly, I can see why you spend time on forums like these rather than bettering your understanding of Islam and Islamic history. You just don't have it. Google, my friend, is no substitute for fundamental comprehension.

lam ta‘rif aya shay’ ‘an ta’riikh al-islaam aw ‘an hadaaratahu Washington bi-raghm ‘an dhaalika taftakir annaka haakim ‘alayya fi haadha al-mawduu‘? bi-saraaha anteh himaar.

antishock8 wrote:Lucky for you, your primary responsibility lies with apologetics. Your bread, Sir, is buttered by a cult and it shows. Good luck with that.

Good luck in your intermittent contacts with reality.




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_Mister Scratch
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Trevor wrote:Well, there is a big difference between being condemned and needing to apologize. I'll be quite frank and say that Dr. Peterson has done a few things that raised my eyebrows. I would not have done them. At the same time, I do not think he is an evil person.


Well, I hope he's not. Certainly, I would say some of the things he's done have been "evil."

The regular characterization of him, his friends, and his organization as sinister is a distortion.


Really? You don't find all the financial secrecy, the shuttling around of a professional fundraiser to solicit funds from wealthy LDS, the smear campaigns conducted on l-skinny, the contracted work for the SCMC, to be just the slightest bit "sinister"? I don't know, Trev. I have just found all of this to be awfully disquieting, and very much like an abuse of power.

I think it fair to say that he has erred in his treatment of some people and in his handling of some situations. He certainly has caused some people pain.


Yes; there's not doubt about that.

As for the "Mopologetic financing" issue, I simply don't find it that disconcerting.


Well, to be more precise, it is the secrecy---and DCP's equivocation---that I find more troublesome.

You make a fine apologist for your own activities (don't we all?). Scratch, I think we both know that you can be perfectly accurate in everything you say and nevertheless distort the truth. You are obviously too sly a fellow to have me believe that you are some kind of rhetorical ingenue. If you have not been exclusively negative regarding DCP, it would probably still be fair to say that the limited praise you have offered has not really tempered your overall campaign to make him look like a world-class schmuck.


*I* make him look like a "world-class schmuck"? Or he does this to himself?

What among his Mopologetic activities is positive? I guess that is really a matter of perspective, and I am a lot less likely to find the positive than those who believe in Mormonism. Have you read all of his editor's essays in the FROB? I think there is some worthwhile stuff in there, and he is a good writer.


I agree that he is a good writer. But, overall, are these editorials "good" or "worthwhile"? I don't think so.

What fundamental good has come of this? Very few people devote their careers to promoting fundamental goods.


Well, bear in mind that apologetics is not his career. (Or is it?)
_Trevor
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Trevor »

Mister Scratch wrote:Really? You don't find all the financial secrecy, the shuttling around of a professional fundraiser to solicit funds from wealthy LDS, the smear campaigns conducted on l-skinny, the contracted work for the SCMC, to be just the slightest bit "sinister"? I don't know, Trev. I have just found all of this to be awfully disquieting, and very much like an abuse of power.


Nope, sorry. Non-profit organizations raise funds. Wealthy people have funds. Nothing sinister. Smear campaigns on l-skinny? I think the mistake may be the posting of exchanges with critics on SHIELDS, not the yuks at l-skinny. A smear campaign generally aims at a wider audience than a handful of geeks on a small list. If the SCMC contacts Peterson to help a member deal with doubts, then that is not sinister. I have no hard information to go on there.

I am not convinced that Daniel Peterson is a sinister character. What I am is disillusioned with the faith of my youth partly because it has a habit of secretive behavior. No, I do not trust the LDS Church. When Dr. Peterson has tracked my IP address and sent the SCMC to my house to inquire after my apostasy and defaming of the LDS Church, then I will be convinced that sinister happenings are afoot. I think the LDS Church has done stuff akin to that (Edit:***Do I?***Seems like a stretch.***). I do not have any reason to believe that Daniel Peterson has personally participated in such activities. Maybe you know something I do not know.

Mister Scratch wrote:Well, to be more precise, it is the secrecy---and DCP's equivocation---that I find more troublesome.


We might chalk it up to him not trusting us with information involving the interests of his employer and church. I am not sure that is troubling so much as prudent.

Mister Scratch wrote:*I* make him look like a "world-class schmuck"? Or he does this to himself?


You are happy to help by repeating what you deem to be his grave sins.

Mister Scratch wrote:I agree that he is a good writer. But, overall, are these editorials "good" or "worthwhile"? I don't think so.


Why? Because they are favorable concerning Mormonism?

Mister Scratch wrote:Well, bear in mind that apologetics is not his career. (Or is it?)


LOL. I don't know. Is it? Career, avocation, obsession, whatever.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Trevor wrote:When Dr. Peterson has tracked my IP address and sent the SCMC to my house to inquire after my apostasy and defaming of the LDS Church, then I will be convinced that sinister happenings are afoot.

Dang!

Abort mission! Abort mission!
_Gadianton
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Gadianton »

Smear campaigns on l-skinny? I think the mistake may be the posting of exchanges with critics on SHIELDS,


But Trevor, don't you think that all the CCing to Skinny-l and the resulting appearance on SHIELDS was connected by something other than blind chance?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_harmony
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Does that mean -- as harmony, who doesn't know me from Adam, imagines -- that I've never admitted any mistake, ever?


Not fair! I said "maybe"!
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Trevor
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Trevor »

Gadianton wrote:But Trevor, don't you think that all the CCing to Skinny-l and the resulting appearance on SHIELDS was connected by something other than blind chance?


Undoubtedly. And I think that these practices might best be discontinued, but what does my opinion matter? When I was an active, believing Mormon, I wished that some apologists did things a little differently. This is the kind of thing that I probably would have objected to. I just don't see it as some kind of awful crime. If an ignoramus with very little personal stake in Mormonism dashes off a gonzo attack against the LDS Church, I think the degree of respect that person deserves is an arguable point. I always felt that the best policy would probably be to hold a very careful standard, to err on the side of caution so as not to appear to be laughing at the expense of the mentally challenged, so to speak. My guess is that Louis Midgley, Daniel Peterson, and Trevor are not in perfect agreement on this. Big deal.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Trevor, you don't seem to have any real stake in any of this, and it is clear that you are lapping up DCP's praise. (I wonder: [MODERATOR NOTE: Behind-the-scenes information (via PM) deleted] You do know that he only views you as a pawn in his little Mopologetic game, don't you?) In any case, I will just refer you to 1 Nephi 1:19-20.

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_Trevor
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Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics

Post by _Trevor »

Mister Scratch wrote:Trevor, you don't seem to have any real stake in any of this, and it is clear that you are lapping up DCP's praise. (I wonder: [MODERATOR NOTE: Behind-the-scenes information (via PM) deleted] You do know that he only views you as a pawn in his little Mopologetic game, don't you?) In any case, I will just refer you to 1 Nephi 1:19-20.


LOL. Go ahead and [MODERATOR NOTE: Behind-the-scenes information deleted]. . . The notion that he views me as a pawn is pretty funny, since that implies his intention and/or ability to manipulate me into doing what he wants me to do. My guess is that he does not have any such intentions nor pretends to any such ability.

I make no bones about the fact that I find your posts amusing, and I do get a kick out of your self-appointed David (David and Goliath) role here. Have at me. If I don't deserve it, perhaps you will make sure that I do.

I have one question, though, Scratch. What stake do you have in all of this? And, as a person with lots of history and connections with Mormonism, how do I have less stake in it than you?

By the way, since I reject your sad attempt to control me, here is the PM I sent you:

Trevor wrote:[MODERATOR NOTE: Behind-the-scenes information (the text of a PM) deleted]

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“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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