"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Lamanite]

Your idea is backwards, Lamanite. The idea isn't that I or any other rank and file member should go on bended knee to them, asking for crumbs (and an appointment for a private audience). The idea is that they should come to us, asking for our input. I'm saying there should be a mechanism by which rank and file members can give input into the workings of the church at the highest level, without fear of retribution and with the knowledge that someone at the top of the food chain is listening. And the way we'd know they were listening was because we'd see change.

Now you see, the statement above is a suggestion. If you're serious about effectuating change, then lets get this show on the road! I think the "mechanism" idea is great. It may be that the mechanism turns out to be a envelope and a stamp, but who knows. Offer him you're ideas.

I've can have plane tickets and appointments setup as early as we can coordinate schedules.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I would love to be a fly on the wall. Especially if you felt confident enough to tell him how much contempt you feel towards Joseph, Brigham Young, and others. Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in the other stuff too, because it could be a good idea; but the contempt for Joseph Smith and BY and the conceit Leaders will be memorable I'm sure. Maybe just take the OP of this thread with you.

[_The Nehor]

Uhhhhh....the leaders of the Church do have a pretty good grasp of what the rank and file are interested in and want. Last year Elder Scott had a meeting for the YSA in the area and it was very interactive. He first started by putting on a big board what he and the Brethren thought were the things most pressing on the YSA and then asked for more ideas from the congregation. He then addressed each in turn and took questions.

Did they allow you to take anything of theirs off the list? Or were you required to keep all of theirs, and given the opportunity to add a few of your own?

I can tell you this: there have been no Elder Scott-types here, talking to the 7 wards/branches full of YSA here. None. If there had been, I'd know about it. I have a daughter in one of those branches, and she'd love to have had a bit of a set-down with a GA, so she could tell him exactly what she thinks of the YSA program. (what she thinks of the SA program is quite graphic, but I'm trying to give up swearing, so I won't post it).

Actually yes, he did present one and asked about it and the consensus was no one cared about it so we skipped it and moved on. He mentioned that when he was somewhere else (don't remember where) the YSA were very interested in discussing it.

[_The Nehor]

They may not have addressed your concerns Harmony but you're NOT one of the rank and file. You're basically an apostate with her name on the rolls. The concerns you gave are held by almost no one in the Church and to see the changes you want would be to see changes very few want.

I most certainly am one of the rank and file, Nehor. I am no more an apostate than you are.

My concerns are just as valid as anyone else's concerns. Just because they aren't your concerns doesn't mean they aren't valid.

Whether they're valid or not I'm not contesting. I'm saying they're RARE. I've never heard any other member in the area demand access to the Church's financial statements and around here when people defame Joseph Smith and claim he fell, call the leaders uninspired, and in other ways speak evil of the anointed of the Lord we call them apostates. Maybe it's different where you live.

[_Daniel Peterson]

You have no shame.

I'm ashamed when I do something shameful.

[_harmony]

Now you see, the statement above is a suggestion. If you're serious about effectuating change, then lets get this show on the road! I think the "mechanism" idea is great. It may be that the mechanism turns out to be a envelope and a stamp, but who knows. Offer him you're ideas.

No letters. See Rollo's post above.

I've can have plane tickets and appointments setup as early as we can coordinate schedules.

I'll let you know when I'm willing to be excommunicated. Until then, we'll table this suggestion.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I most certainly am one of the rank and file, Nehor. I am no more an apostate than you are.

My concerns are just as valid as anyone else's concerns. Just because they aren't your concerns doesn't mean they aren't valid.

I mean this with all due respect, harmony, but I have never once got the impression that you like the LDS Church. I am not telling you this as an attack, I am merely telling you what I have observed in rather casual and not comprehensive reading of posts you make on the Internet. Perhaps this is a place where you simply blow off steam or something, but the steam is so protracted and consistent, I am at a complete loss to understand why you even (apparently) attend Church. I can't imagine what you do when you sit in sacrament meeting and hear talks with which you disagree. I don't know how you sit through 3 hours each Sunday and not raise your hand to disagree with all the things you would disagree with. I can't fathom your response (nor is it much my business) to the questions of the temple recommend interview. Joseph as a prophet, the current leadership as prophets, seers, revelators, etc. It seems to me that you hate the Church. You may very well believe that you don't, but the overwhelming impression I've received is loathing. You say you love the Saints, and you do well, but Dan Peterson is a latter-day Saint. So am I. The brethren are too. So are the guys who wrote the Mountain Meadows Massacre book, and all other imperfect people. "Rank and file" don't typically spend so much time talking about how awful the Church leadership is. They don't complain about every move the Church makes. I don't remember you ever having one good thing to say about the Church. You must have, I admit, but I don't remember seeing it. I guess your personality away from the Internet may be much different, but I am downright baffled at this post you just made.

[_harmony]

I wonder if those top fifteen were rotated like bishops if they would get deeply depressed after being released and possibly go inactive.

That's an interesting concept, Karl. I wonder if the Brethren-ship wasn't a lifetime calling, but had an end date like 99% of callings within the rest of the church, if they'd make different decisions than they do now... if they'd take care of their stewardship differently, knowing someone else was going to take over in 5 years or so.

Whoa. What a thought!

[_The Nehor]

Uhhhhh....the leaders of the Church do have a pretty good grasp of what the rank and file are interested in and want.

They are generally clueless, in my opinion.

Last year Elder Scott had a meeting for the YSA in the area and it was very interactive. He first started by putting on a big board what he and the Brethren thought were the things most pressing on the YSA and then asked for more ideas from the congregation. He then addressed each in turn and took questions.

Perhaps a nice 'dog and pony show,' but did anything come of it to your knowledge?

They may not have addressed your concerns Harmony but you're NOT one of the rank and file. You're basically an apostate with her name on the rolls.

Harmony is as 'rank and file' as they come, in my opinion. She is certainly no "apostate." The Church is as much hers as it is mine, yours, DCP's or Tom Monson's.

The concerns you gave are held by almost no one in the Church and to see the changes you want would be to see changes very few want.

I completely disagree.

The 'dog and pony show' brought peace to a great many people. It was not an organizational meeting. It was designed to deal with REAL problems people were facing.

Harmony is not as 'rank and file' as they come. I've never met a member as judgmental and harsh in criticism towards out leaders within the Church before. She heaps it on. It is as much mine as hers. Unfortunately that means nothing. It's Christ's Church and if he was as upset as Harmony was about her gripes I'm pretty sure he has both the power and ability to create change through direct revelation or removing leaders if they won't listen. I have a robust enough faith to believe that.

[_The Nehor]

I'll let you know when I'm willing to be excommunicated. Until then, we'll table this suggestion.

You're no more apostate then me but telling the Brethren what you think would get you excommunicated? I don't think that's the case with me. Can we use this as a litmus test?

[_Rollo Tomasi]

The 'dog and pony show' brought peace to a great many people. It was not an organizational meeting. It was designed to deal with REAL problems people were facing.

And what REAL solutions came from it?

Harmony is not as 'rank and file' as they come. I've never met a member as judgmental and harsh in criticism towards out leaders within the Church before.

She is saying things many faithful members think and believe. The Brethren are not infalliable -- they screw up all the time (as we all do).

It is as much mine as hers. Unfortunately that means nothing.

It means everything.

It's Christ's Church and if he was as upset as Harmony was about her gripes I'm pretty sure he has both the power and ability to create change through direct revelation or removing leaders if they won't listen.

Fortunately, He is not a puppetmaster and we are not puppets. I think for the most part He leaves us (including the Brethren) to our own devices.