"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Perhaps this is because for many faithful members there is a big difference between the LDS Church in terms of theology and the LDS Church as an institution.

Don't get me wrong, I agree there are institutional or cultural things about the Church I wouldn't mind seeing changed. I've thought a good deal about it. I read about when Pres. Woodruff personally signed each temple recommend, or when the prophet signed each mission call. I wondered about other things like how meetings are conducted, why I have the particular church calling I have, things like that.

At length I realized that this really isn't a "Wasatch Front" church anymore. There are good and bad things about the growth of the Church. So what can I do? Since my interest in in history and theology I can contribute through my blog. I can make comments in meetings. I learn to speak in a charitable way and hope I speak by the Spirit so that members know where my loyalty is. I'm not perfect at this.

I can't imagine what you do when you sit in sacrament meeting and hear talks with which you disagree. I don't know how you sit through 3 hours each Sunday and not raise your hand to disagree with all the things you would disagree with.

Perhaps there are many things she also agrees with. It's that way with me.

I didn't even know you attend Church. I don't sit and wonder about these things, I just never got the impression that you did. Sometimes I read a book during sacrament meeting or Sunday School. I am going to try to cut down on that.

I can't fathom your response (nor is it much my business) to the questions of the temple recommend interview. Joseph as a prophet, the current leadership as prophets, seers, revelators, etc.

No question asks if these persons were/are perfect or infalliable. As to the current leadership, the question is whether I "sustain." One can "sustain" and support without obeying, etc. in my opinion, "sustain" also means to think for one's self and point out when mere humans, even prophets, screw up.

Basically, the accusations leveled at the brethren in this thread seem more serious than "they are imperfect."

It seems to me that you hate the Church.

I don't get that impression from harmony at all.

I do. Same for you, though.

You say you love the Saints, and you do well, but Dan Peterson is a latter-day Saint.

In name, perhaps, but some of his actions here suggest otherwise.

So why do we get to judge him, though? What's all this about stewardship and all this when we are commanded to forgive all men? No matter what? Granted I am not perfect in this regard, but I'm aware of it.

"Rank and file" don't typically spend so much time talking about how awful the Church leadership is.

Perhaps they should. That's the only way change for the better comes about.

Because we ought to be telling the leaders how to run things.

They don't complain about every move the Church makes.

I think they should -- 'squeaky wheel gets the grease' and all that.

The wheel isn't squeaking, it appears to have fallen off the vehicle.

I don't remember you ever having one good thing to say about the Church.

I do.[/quote]

Can you show me?

[_The Nehor]

You just trashed a great many faithful members of the church.

I haven't met one of these faithful members of the Church who think as you say they do so until I do I'm putting them in the same category as the invisible pink pegasi that frolic outside my window every day.

[_Lamanite]

Harmony wrote: [quote]A phone call they won't answer, a meeting that will never take place, a letter that no one will read.[/]

I know you want to table this idea, but I think you should reconsider.

I will pay the cost of your plane ticket.
We can find free lodging and food, and I'd love to take you and others to dinner.
Then you can express your concerns and criticism in a safe loving environment.


See...what I did here was Identify a problem, came up with a solution and the means, and am now patiently waiting for your approval and we can go into action. Don't you think it will be incredibly liberating? I do. I'll go with you and tell them him I'm against Prop 8, never understood the Priesthood Ban or Polygamy, and think we should cut down the block to just Sacrament and Priesthood and that's it.

It will be a good experience.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Did any policy change? Was anything changed with the YW or the YSA women's program in response to your friend's experience? Are YW and YSA women now given any insight into something besides the necessity of a superficial beauty to attract men with the aim of getting married and having a houseful of children? Are they taught the necessity of getting an education with the aim of having a career (as opposed to going to college to meet a RM and getting the MRS degree before they're 20?), the importance of dressing appropriately and professionally as an expression of confidence and competence, (as opposed to flirtatiously with the intent to trap some poor guy into a marriage that goes bad within 5 years and leaves them with 3 small children to support?), or lessons about feeling worthwhile in the face of constant criticism for either not being lucky enough to find a guy and get married before 20 or *gasp* choosing to have a career because all the guys in the Branch are jerks or worse?

Yeah, but all that was going on before this particular talk.

No?

No, I said yes.

Then your friend's experience wasn't really helpful to the rest of the young single women in the church, was it?

Welcome to my daughter's world.

Helped her. Helped me. Helped others. I don't expect it to help everyone but I imagine the apostle took note. I'm certain he did.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Untrue. Case in point: GoodK and his father.

Rollo absolutely loves this subject. He'll keep it going forever.

That's the beauty of truth -- it never changes and you can never run from it, my dear bishop.

[_Lamanite]

I'm not sure where this sort of thing comes from. I've related this story here before, might as well do it again. A friend of mine attended a young single adult fireside at Utah State University. I was at the fireside as well. The speaker, one of the twelve apostles, was talking about- go figure- dating. He was speaking extemporaneously and made a crack about how some young men need to try to clean themselves up a little more, make themselves more presentable. He then said the same for the young women, and said some of them look like they just rolled out of bed, pajamas in class, no makeup, and that they sometimes look like (and here was the kicker) "death warmed over."

Well, my friend is a slight feminist. She doesn't wear makeup. She was offended by the joke and decided to write the speaker a letter, not expecting anything in return. She told him how it was difficult for her to be a young woman competing with the portrayal of women we see on tv and in magazines. She said it was difficult to not follow the false sense of beauty she saw in the world, to become worldly.

Soon she received a call asking her if she would be in SLC anytime soon, and that the apostle wanted to see her. During their visit he tried to explain what he meant, but ultimately said he was sorry for having made the comment.

Did any policy change? Was anything changed with the YW or the YSA women's program in response to your friend's experience? Are YW and YSA women now given any insight into something besides the necessity of a superficial beauty to attract men with the aim of getting married and having a houseful of children? Are they taught the necessity of getting an education with the aim of having a career (as opposed to going to college to meet a RM and getting the MRS degree before they're 20?), the importance of dressing appropriately and professionally as an expression of confidence and competence, (as opposed to flirtatiously with the intent to trap some poor guy into a marriage that goes bad within 5 years and leaves them with 3 small children to support?), or lessons about feeling worthwhile in the face of constant criticism for either not being lucky enough to find a guy and get married before 20 or *gasp* choosing to have a career because all the guys in the Branch are jerks or worse?

No? Then your friend's experience wasn't really helpful to the rest of the young single women in the church, was it?

Welcome to my daughter's world.

I think it was Kimberly who said we should all lick cupcakes and we'll feel better about this stuff!

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Harmony wrote:

A phone call they won't answer, a meeting that will never take place, a letter that no one will read.[/]

I know you want to table this idea, but I think you should reconsider.

I will pay the cost of your plane ticket.
We can find free lodging and food, and I'd love to take you and others to dinner.
Then you can express your concerns and criticism in a safe loving environment.


See...what I did here was Identify a problem, came up with a solution and the means, and am now patiently waiting for your approval and we can go into action. Don't you think it will be incredibly liberating? I do. I'll go with you and tell them him I'm against Prop 8, never understood the Priesthood Ban or Polygamy, and think we should cut down the block to just Sacrament and Priesthood and that's it.

It will be a good experience.

Big UP!

Lamanite

You've got free lodging at my condo.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Harmony may have many wonderful qualities, for all I know, but if the sentiments she expresses on line are any valid indicator, she ceased to be a Mormon in any meaningful sense quite some time ago.

Unless I've seriously misread her over the years, she disdains the leaders of the Church, holds Joseph Smith in some significant degree of contempt, rejects many if not most or all of the distinctive doctrines of the Church, repudiates substantial portions (if not the entirety) of the Church's scriptural canon, etc., etc.

I think she may still have some vestigial connection to Christianity, but I'm not altogether sure of that.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Rollo absolutely loves this subject. He'll keep it going forever.

That's the beauty of truth -- it never changes and you can never run from it, my dear bishop.

To the top, for Rollo.

[_harmony]

Honestly Harmony, I've laid the opportunity at your feet. You declined. So what is the solution? Just a lot of bitching on your part. What is that going to solve? Do you want me to do the work? How about Dan? Maybe LOAP? Which one of the Saints is supposed to solve the problems? Give some solutions and be willing to get involved.

I gave suggestions. See the opening page.

Problem: lack of trust in the financial dealings of the church, due to lack of information.

Solution: open the books. Send a complete financial statement to every member household every year in the Ensign.

See how easy that is?

Problem: leaders whose living is paid for from any funds administered by the church.

Solution: open the books, all of them. Acknowledge that some of our leaders are paid a stipend. Acknowledge that some our leaders live in church-owned buildings free of rent, have cars and drivers at their disposal paid for by church funds, and that the food they eat and the clothes they wear are paid for the by sweat of the brows of members who do not enjoy the same standard of living.

That one was easy too.

Problem: family members are unable to attend temple weddings.

Solution: open the temple marriage ceremony so that all family members can attend.

That one was very simple.

Problem: members are critical of young men or women who choose to not serve missions.

Solution: remind members from the GC pulpit that missions are not mandatory and have no bearing on a person's worthiness.

That was simple too (although I realize changing that particular cultural phenomena will take a long time).

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Hiding behind the "I'm not ready to get ex'd" routine is tiresome.

I live in the real world, not behind the Zion Curtain.

Identify a problem, make an attempt to offer solutions, and then go into action.

See above.

You're in the, Bitch and complain , I'm too stubborn to share my solutions (And to be frank I don't think you have one viable solution to any of the problems you complain about), and even if a solution were presented, you go into the, "I'm not willing to get involved because I might get ex'd; even though I hate the majority of what the Church was and is."

Well, I kinda value my family's feelings. I'm strange that way, I know.