"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Jason Bourne]

I know I have mentioned this before but I will again

I have written to letters (one email and another snail mail) to two different apostles and received personal replies. One was in relation to something that was troubling me to the very core. The response I got was tender and caring. Later when things were better I sent a note of thanks to the apostle that helped me out and again received a personal response.

I have had a chance to meet a number of other of the 70 and have generally found them very caring. One time Elder Haight was in our area and our choir did a special performance for the him and the MPs he was with. He took time to speak to each of us and thank us.

Recently President Uchdorf was in our ward, for a sacrament meeting. He took about 15 minutes afterwords and spoke to the members. He then took a group of youth aside and spent an hour taking questions from them.

I am not sure in a large organization like the LDS Church the top leaders are always going to be accessible at least in the way Harmony wants. But my guess is that were she in SLC and if she asked for an appointment with a leader she would get it, assuming she planned ahead of time.

I understand her complaints about the records, the seeming almost worship and "rock star" treatment members seem to grant GAs. I also understand the culture that she is complaining about that the idea of not ever criticizing a top leader can create. These things are less than good in my opinion.

But my limited experience, and yes I am a rank and file member, with all but one or two GAs I have met, has been positive. Also, we need to keep in mind that most of them really did just start where we all did. There is not a paid clergy to climb the ranks in. Sure some were in the right place to get noticed. But all the same, most were just ordinary LDS filling various callngs.

Also, keep in mind that he area authority 70 position is a way to give closer access to rank and file member to top leaders. I know two of such 70s that live in my stake. I have been able to voice concerns to them that they said they would address. One of them was regarding prop 8 by the way.

My thoughts is overall these men are decent and good and trying to run things best they can.

[_Ray A]

I know I have mentioned this before but I will again

I have written to letters (one email and another snail mail) to two different apostles and received personal replies.

I wrote a letter to Elder Packer in the 1980s criticising his approach to history, and If I recall correctly it was prompted by his 1981 CES talk. However, I made sure in the end of the reply to state that I supported him (and I did at the time), but felt there were better ways to approach these problems. I think it was that end bit of my expressed support that prompted his reply (but truth be told, I just didn't want to piss him off with a totally negative letter). His reply was only about one or two lines, thanking me for expressing my concerns. He offered no opinion on the content of the letter. (and yes, it was a genuine hand-written pen signature, even if someone else typed it up for him)

This was during the time they were encouraging members not to write GAs, but I chanced it.

[_cksalmon]

This thread seems to have become something of a minefield. If I've missed anything, feel free to point it out.

cks

[_Jason Bourne]

This thread seems to have become something of a minefield. If I've missed anything, feel free to point it out.

cks

Well I hope you deleted the personal attack that generated my so called attack.

Hey this is the first edit I have gotten here. Hmmmmm.....

[_Trevor]

In an organization as large as the LDS Church, it is not possible for the leaders to be equally accessible to everyone. My experience meeting leaders of the Church has been mixed. Some I liked more than others. And, my guess is that this has a lot to do with personality and circumstances.

When I interviewed for a faculty position at BYU, Elder Madsen of the Seventy interviewed me. He was very warm and kind. He took me on a special tour of the Old Church Office Building and showed me the offices of the apostles and a room where the Brethren and the First Presidency sometimes meet. Although he was short on time, he went out to my car with me so he could see a picture of my family. It seems to me that he went to bat for me to get the position (he made a couple of follow-up calls that lead me to believe he did), but it did not work out.

Whew! Imagine me trying to hold it together as a BYU prof. Believers here would call that decision inspiration. I call it a boon. In any case, most LDS leaders I have met have done their best to be very nice to me, even Elder Packer, whom I have spoken against many times here and elsewhere.

[_Ray A]

This thread seems to have become something of a minefield. If I've missed anything, feel free to point it out.

cks

Perhaps if the new rules become permanent after Jan.1st we'll need a report button, or something close to it. In the meantime you can delete all of DCP's images, they're scaring me.

[_cksalmon]

This thread seems to have become something of a minefield. If I've missed anything, feel free to point it out.

cks

Well I hope you deleted the personal attack that generated my so called attack.

Hey this is the first edit I have gotten here. Hmmmmm.....

Yeah, I think I got it, Jason. I'm just attempting to follow the mandate. Nothing personal with regard to anyone.

cks

[_Yoda]

Are they taught the necessity of getting an education with the aim of having a career (as opposed to going to college to meet a RM and getting the MRS degree before they're 20?)

I would like to add that this is changing....if not on a grand scale, then at least in individual wards and stakes.

The Young Women in our ward had a night dedicated to college preparedness. They had several professors and testing specialists speak on SAT tests, and different preparedness courses offered. They also went through the college application process, and focussed on do's and don'ts for college entrance essays, etc.

Education is strongly emphasized. Now, maybe that has to do with the fact that we have an unusual amount of colleges and universities in our area. There are quite a few of us who teach either in the public schools or on the university level who live within the ward boundaries.

[_Yoda]

Solution: open the books, all of them. Acknowledge that some of our leaders are paid a stipend. Acknowledge that some our leaders live in church-owned buildings free of rent, have cars and drivers at their disposal paid for by church funds, and that the food they eat and the clothes they wear are paid for the by sweat of the brows of members who do not enjoy the same standard of living.

I agree that the books should be open.

Let me just clarify something here, though. I am related to a member of the Quorum of the 12, so I can speak to this.

My family member is not paid a stipend for living expenses. He made a substantial living before retiring, and is quite well off. He lives in the home that he raised his children in. The Church does pay for his air travel. Also, since he is on the Board of Directors for BYU, he has access to BYU's health insurance.

The financial expenses of the brethren are handled on an individual basis, based on their financial situation. The Church does make sure that the brethren can live comfortably and serve.

I do agree that the Church should be publicly stating this. When we consistently state that we do not have a paid ministry, it is a deceiving statement. We do not have a LOCAL paid ministry, but our Church leaders are paid, based on their need, in order to serve effectively. Frankly, I don't think that members would be upset by knowing this. I'm not. But I think it should be more publicly stated.

[_Lamanite]

I gave suggestions. See the opening page.

Problem: lack of trust in the financial dealings of the church, due to lack of information.

Solution: open the books. Send a complete financial statement to every member household every year in the Ensign.

See how easy that is?

Problem: leaders whose living is paid for from any funds administered by the church.

Solution: open the books, all of them. Acknowledge that some of our leaders are paid a stipend. Acknowledge that some our leaders live in church-owned buildings free of rent, have cars and drivers at their disposal paid for by church funds, and that the food they eat and the clothes they wear are paid for the by sweat of the brows of members who do not enjoy the same standard of living.

That one was easy too.

Problem: family members are unable to attend temple weddings.

Solution: open the temple marriage ceremony so that all family members can attend.

That one was very simple.

Problem: members are critical of young men or women who choose to not serve missions.

Solution: remind members from the GC pulpit that missions are not mandatory and have no bearing on a person's worthiness.

That was simple too (although I realize changing that particular cultural phenomena will take a long time).

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Hiding behind the "I'm not ready to get ex'd" routine is tiresome.

I live in the real world, not behind the Zion Curtain.

Identify a problem, make an attempt to offer solutions, and then go into action.

See above.

You're in the, Bitch and complain , I'm too stubborn to share my solutions (And to be frank I don't think you have one viable solution to any of the problems you complain about), and even if a solution were presented, you go into the, "I'm not willing to get involved because I might get ex'd; even though I hate the majority of what the Church was and is."

Well, I kinda value my family's feelings. I'm strange that way, I know.

Wonderful, so let's take these suggestions to the a member of the quorum of the Twelve and see where we get.

LOAP said you can bunk at his house. I'm setting up the interview with a member of the 12, (your choice) and I'm paying for airfare.

What do you have to lose? Let's do this. I'm interested. I've got some feedback to give. I view each on of these men as loving sensitive men of God who are innately flawed. And I'm happy they they are flawed because it makes me feel more comfortable as I stumble through life.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I'm serious let's do this. This is a unique opportunity. I put in on my Mom that I can get the appointment. You just have to show up and vent.