"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Yoda]

Hey, Harm...I did address an aspect of #3 about two pages back. Here is my quote:

Solution: open the books, all of them. Acknowledge that some of our leaders are paid a stipend. Acknowledge that some our leaders live in church-owned buildings free of rent, have cars and drivers at their disposal paid for by church funds, and that the food they eat and the clothes they wear are paid for the by sweat of the brows of members who do not enjoy the same standard of living.

I agree that the books should be open.

Let me just clarify something here, though. I am related to a member of the Quorum of the 12, so I can speak to this.

My family member is not paid a stipend for living expenses. He made a substantial living before retiring, and is quite well off. He lives in the home that he raised his children in. The Church does pay for his air travel. Also, since he is on the Board of Directors for BYU, he has access to BYU's health insurance.

The financial expenses of the brethren are handled on an individual basis, based on their financial situation. The Church does make sure that the brethren can live comfortably and serve.

I do agree that the Church should be publicly stating this. When we consistently state that we do not have a paid ministry, it is a deceiving statement. We do not have a LOCAL paid ministry, but our Church leaders are paid, based on their need, in order to serve effectively. Frankly, I don't think that members would be upset by knowing this. I'm not. But I think it should be more publicly stated.

[_Yoda]

4. Listen to those who have been hurt by the church. Get past their anger and actually hear the underlying pain.

5. Address the dysfunctional aspects of Mormon culture. Nothing is exempt.

These two are really intertwined, aren't they? I agree that they need to be addressed.

What are some specific examples you were thinking of regarding aspects of Mormon culture?

[_harmony]

Hey, Harm...I did address an aspect of #3 about two pages back. Here is my quote:

I agree that the books should be open.

Let me just clarify something here, though. I am related to a member of the Quorum of the 12, so I can speak to this.

My family member is not paid a stipend for living expenses. He made a substantial living before retiring, and is quite well off. He lives in the home that he raised his children in. The Church does pay for his air travel. Also, since he is on the Board of Directors for BYU, he has access to BYU's health insurance.

The financial expenses of the brethren are handled on an individual basis, based on their financial situation. The Church does make sure that the brethren can live comfortably and serve.

I do agree that the Church should be publicly stating this. When we consistently state that we do not have a paid ministry, it is a deceiving statement. We do not have a LOCAL paid ministry, but our Church leaders are paid, based on their need, in order to serve effectively. Frankly, I don't think that members would be upset by knowing this. I'm not. But I think it should be more publicly stated.

[/quote]

Thanks, Liz. So when can we expect to see the results of your discussion with your family member? (You only have 2 strikes, since you're connected somewhat to Mormon Royalty).

[_Yoda]

Thanks, Liz. So when can we expect to see the results of your discussion with your family member? (You only have 2 strikes, since you're connected somewhat to Mormon Royalty).

It has actually been 4 years since I have seen him. He is my husband's relative, so we only see him at family reunions. Since he lives in the West, and we live in the East, contact with him is sporadic. I have no problem talking with him about this, though. Frankly, I don't think he would have any problem making the Church financials more transparent. However, he is not a sole decision maker.

[_Daniel Peterson]

You of all people should know that change will never occur, no matter if harmony had a face to face meeting with the Prophet. Because that's not how Mormonism works.

And this is really starting to disgust me.

Me too. Though probably not for the same reason.

The question isn't whether Mormonism will change according to harmony's specifications. The question is whether her claim that the Brethren are hermetically sealed off from contact with ordinary members is true.

It isn't.

No empty promises have been made to her. She could, if she chose, most definitely meet with a member of the Twelve. Her way would be paid. Her food would be provided. Her lodging would be free. There is nothing bogus about any of this.

Glad to see you still feel proud of what you did to my family

I feel neither proud of it nor ashamed. It was no great achievement and it certainly wasn't any great crime.

I passed on a link to a public message board.

Here is my usual response, emphasis added this time:

GoodK grows more and more angry with the passage of time. It's a curious phenomenon.

[_Ray A]

The question isn't whether Mormonism will change according to harmony's specifications. The question is whether her claim that the Brethren are hermetically sealed off from contact with ordinary members is true.

It isn't.

Then why even encourage the idea that a member of the Twelve will take her suggestions seriously? That is what's bogus, trying to entice harmony to SLC to meet with a member of the Twelve and persuading her that what she has to say is important, or even relevant. It isn't, and never will be. She was being enticed on false premises, and flattery.

No empty promises have been made to her. She could, if she chose, most definitely meet with a member of the Twelve. Her way would be paid. Her food would be provided. Her lodging would be free. There is nothing bogus about any of this.

No. Not at all. She most surely could meet with a member of the twelve. But to encourage the idea that she could effect "change" is bogus.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Then why even encourage the idea that a member of the Twelve will take her suggestions seriously? That is what's bogus, trying to entice harmony to SLC to meet with a member of the Twelve and persuading her that what she has to say is important, or even relevant. It isn't, and never will be. She was being enticed on false premises, and flattery.

Not so. I think that a member of the Twelve would take her comments seriously. That's rather a different thing than saying that he would accede to her demands. I'm confident of the first, dubious about the second.

She most surely could meet with a member of the twelve.

Bingo. She's been saying, though, that it would be impossible.

But to encourage the idea that she could effect "change" is bogus.

I've suggested no such thing.

And I've never granted harmony the right or authority to "effect" change.

Furthermore, I don't entirely agree with her list of proposed changes. And I think most active members of the Church would be likely to side with me rather than with harmony on her proposals.

[Guest]

Told them what?

Is harmony anywhere near such influence?

She certainly won't if she never even makes the attempt. Which is the whole point. She is claiming that the 12 are too good to meet with someone of her self-proclaimed lowly station. That simply is not so. Further, it seems her demands are taken to be how things are and need to become. That also remains to be shown.

You and others have exploited her on this thread by shamelessly offering bogus promises.

I assure you, though you think the worst of me for some reason, I am entirely sincere in my offer. As is Sione and Dan Peterson. At this point it isn't a game or a put on; it is a legitimate offer and an extending of the hand of fellowship. It's not a joke, exploitation, or whatever else you negative folks want to paint it.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Is this an admission that change came about because of academic influence, and not revelation?

It is now apparent you don't know what any of those men said of their experiences. Further, it seems you believe the two things are mutually exclusive. I can't remember if I ever viewed things through the lens of that dichotomy but I certainly do not now.

[_Ray A]

She most surely could meet with a member of the twelve.

Bingo. She's been saying, though, that it would be impossible.

You mean if she packed her bags, upset her work schedule, left her family and family responsibilties, to travel, and live in strangers' homes, yeah, she could meet an apostle. Her point was that no member should have to do this! How about you and Lamanite arrange for an apostle to fly out to meet Harmony? Why should she, an ordinary working mother with more charity work behind her than they might be able to claim at the grass roots level, with NO frequent flyer points, pack her bags to have the honour of "meeting an apostle" who will eventually reject everything she suggests?