From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

[_Daniel Peterson]

Hold on, Daniel. Define "typical rank and file member of the Church". I certainly wouldn't put you in that category.

I'm pretty ordinary. I attend an ordinary ward, serve as one of several thousand bishops, get no special seating for general conference, etc., etc. I'm neither rich nor poor; my extended family are pretty much middle class; my extended family includes farmers and truck drivers and welders and janitors and construction workers.

There are aspects of doctrinal theory that you openly disagree with from your peers.

I'm very much in the Mormon doctrinal mainstream.

Just because Harmony has problems with aspects of the gospel doesn't mean that she isn't a meaningful member of the Church. A lot of members have problems with polygamy, myself included.

It isn't just polygamy that she has problems with. And I don't know what, exactly, you intend by "meaningful member."

But a person who disdains the Church's current leadership, speaks contemptuously of Joseph Smith, rejects the Doctrine and Covenants, and so forth, doesn't seem very Mormon. S/he may well be a fine person, but there are plenty of fine persons who aren't LDS.

A person who rejects the Qur’an, disdains Muhammad, and refuses to pray wouldn't be much of a Muslim. A person who repudiates the papacy and rejects the priesthood and the mass wouldn't be much of a Catholic. Either of them, though, might be a wonderful individual.

[_Ray A]

A person who rejects the Qur’an, disdains Muhammad, and refuses to pray wouldn't be much of a Muslim. A person who repudiates the papacy and rejects the priesthood and the mass wouldn't be much of a Catholic. Either of them, though, might be a wonderful individual.

But Dan, aren't you the one trying to encourage Muslims to be more moderate?

What is a "moderate Muslim" to you? Someone who does not take Islam literally? And if they took Islam literally, wouldn't that mean a total rejection of Mormonism, with the possibility of a future "jihad" against "infidel Mormons"?

You seek for balance and moderation, but what are you doing for that in regard to Mormonism? Encouraging people to take Mormonism in a literal way? If a Muslim rejected the Qur'an, you would not bat an eyelid, but if a Mormon rejected the Book of Mormon - his soul is in serious danger. Am I right?
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[_Daniel Peterson]

A person who rejects the Qur’an, disdains Muhammad, and refuses to pray wouldn't be much of a Muslim. A person who repudiates the papacy and rejects the priesthood and the mass wouldn't be much of a Catholic. Either of them, though, might be a wonderful individual.

But Dan, aren't you the one trying to encourage Muslims to be more moderate?

I'm among many.

What is a "moderate Muslim" to you? Someone who does not take Islam literally?

No.

And I'm certainly not insisting that, in order to be "moderates," Muslims must reject the Qur’an, disdain Muhammad, and refuse to pray.

And if they took Islam literally, wouldn't that mean a total rejection of Mormonism, with the possibility of a future "jihad" against "infidel Mormons"?

A moderate but believing Muslim would, of course, be a Muslim, and, thus, not a Mormon. Just as a Catholic isn't a Mormon. Would that mean "total rejection"? I'm not sure what "total rejection" would mean, precisely. A Mormon and a moderate Muslim could still agree that there is a God, that God acts in history, that God called a line of prophets including Moses and Abraham and many others, that Jesus was called of God, that Jesus will return again at the end of time, that life continues after death, that we will all be resurrected and face a final judgment, and etc. and so forth.

But a moderate Muslim, in my terms, would not be inclined to launch a jihad against Mormon infidels, no.

You seek for balance and moderation, but what are you doing for that in regard to Mormonism?

Being a balanced and moderate Mormon and teaching a balanced and moderate Mormonism.

I've never blown up a car, decapitated a Methodist, or trained a Mormon suicide bomber, if that's what you're asking. And I've never advocated a holy war against Seventh Day Adventists or Quakers.

Encouraging people to take Mormonism in a literal way?

Why not? I do.

If a Muslim rejected the Qur'an, you would not bat an eyelid, but if a Mormon rejected the Book of Mormon - his soul is in serious danger. Am I right?

I'm a believing Latter-day Saint, not a believing Muslim. Why do you find this so unfathomable?

[_LifeOnaPlate]

... but if a Mormon rejected the Book of Mormon - his soul is in serious danger. Am I right?
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I personally don't believe that simply rejecting the Book of Mormon in good faith will mean one's soul is in "serious danger."

[_Daniel Peterson]

I personally don't believe that simply rejecting the Book of Mormon in good faith will mean one's soul is in "serious danger."

Nor do I. I leave eternal judgments to God, but personally incline to a kind of universalism.

[_Yoda]

And I don't know what, exactly, you intend by "meaningful member."

You stated that Harmony was not a Mormon in any type of meaningful way. That is what I was referring to.

But a person who disdains the Church's current leadership, speaks contemptuously of Joseph Smith, rejects the Doctrine and Covenants, and so forth, doesn't seem very Mormon. S/he may well be a fine person, but there are plenty of fine persons who aren't LDS.

You're distorting Harmony's views.

She doesn't disdain the Church's current leadership. There are specific aspects of things that the leaders do that she would like to see changed.

She speaks contemptuously of Joseph Smith regarding polygamy. I have also read posts where she freely admits that Joseph Smith was inspired by God in bringing forth the Book of Mormon, and she has a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

She does not reject the entire Doctrine and Covenants. She rejects section 132.

[_Daniel Peterson]

And I don't know what, exactly, you intend by "meaningful member."

You stated that Harmony was not a Mormon in any type of meaningful way. That is what I was referring to.

Does harmony believe in anything that is uniquely and specifically Mormon?

She may, but, if she does, I can't recall it.

She doesn't disdain the Church's current leadership. There are specific aspects of things that the leaders do that she would like to see changed.

She's had extraordinarily uncharitable things to say about their characters.

She speaks contemptuously of Joseph Smith regarding polygamy.

I don't deny that.

I've also seen posts from her where she speaks contemptuously of him in other ways, as well.

I have also read posts where she freely admits that Joseph Smith was inspired by God in bringing forth the Book of Mormon, and she has a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

I've seen those, but I've also seen posts that seem to go other way.

She does not reject the entire Doctrine and Covenants. She rejects section 132.

It would be interesting to see what she herself has to say on this.

[_Yoda]

It would be interesting to see what she herself has to say on this.

I'm sure when she comes back online, she will. I've never known Harm to be shy.

[_John Larsen]

But Dan, aren't you the one trying to encourage Muslims to be more moderate?

I'm among many.

Hey, I just noticed something. Dr. Peterson is outside of Islam encouraging Islam to change and be more in line with worldly norms by moderating their beliefs. I am outside of Mormonism encouraging Mormonism to change and be more in line with worldly norms by moderating their beliefs.

Since I am routinely labeled an anti-Mormon for doing so--I wonder--is Dr. Peterson an anti-Muslim? Clearly he is at least as anti-Muslim as many Mormon watchers are anti-Mormon.

Welcome to the club of religious persecutors, dude.

[_harmony]

You stated that Harmony was not a Mormon in any type of meaningful way. That is what I was referring to.

Does harmony believe in anything that is uniquely and specifically Mormon?

She may, but, if she does, I can't recall it.

Certainly.

1. I believe Joseph was a prophet, right up until he laid down the mantle at the same time he laid down Fanny.

2. I believe the current Brethren are prophets, seers, and revelators today, and if and when they actually prophesy, see, and reveal something of actual worth to the members and the world at large, I'll be the first member with my right hand in the air.

3. I believe in Christ, in our Father, God, and in the Holy Ghost. I feel their presence and guidance in my life daily.

Anything else?

She doesn't disdain the Church's current leadership. There are specific aspects of things that the leaders do that she would like to see changed.

She's had extraordinarily uncharitable things to say about their characters.

I have critical things to say about the way they do things. What I think of their characters is only a sideline, but even that sideline is not extraordinary nor uncharitable.

She speaks contemptuously of Joseph Smith regarding polygamy.

I don't deny that.

I've also seen posts from her where she speaks contemptuously of him in other ways, as well.

So in order to be a member in your LDS church, I have to speak reverently of Joseph? I can't criticize him, comment on his behaviors, and I must be less than honest in my opinions of him? Good thing I'm not a member of your LDS church.

I have also read posts where she freely admits that Joseph Smith was inspired by God in bringing forth the Book of Mormon, and she has a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

I've seen those, but I've also seen posts that seem to go other way.

I don't see how you could see that, since I have yet to form an opinion about the provence of the Book of Mormon. I do, however, doubt the word of the witnesses, but that's a commentary on them, not the book.

She does not reject the entire Doctrine and Covenants. She rejects section 132.

It would be interesting to see what she herself has to say on this.

I reject polygamy. What else do you want me to say? It was a scourge and an abomination, it almost caused the church to be dismantled, and if it wasn't for the courage of Woodruff, defying his own quorum, the whole shebang would have gone up in smoke.