"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Daniel Peterson]

if my reading of the Gospels is correct, you honour him with your lips, but your heart is far from him.

Ray, you don't know my heart.

But your declaration is fascinating, and I can now see better why you so passionately defend harmony's judgmentalism. You share it.

I don't presume to see into your heart, or harmony's, and it was precisely her condemnation of the hearts and characters of the Brethren -- her arrogation to herself of the right to judge them (without having even met them! at a distance!) as if she were God -- to which I objected at the beginning of this thread.

To me, a message board is about the posts and the ideas in them. I cannot know, and don't presume to know, what harmony is like off line. And, despite our two hours or so together there in Wollongong, you really don't know me.

[_Ray A]

It's unreasonable to expect one of them to drop everything and make a lengthy pilgrimage to the home of a particular alienated member who has indicated that she doesn't want to talk to him, merely because she's a vocal anonymous poster on a marginal message board.

Yes, Dan. Harmony is nothing but "a vocal anonymous poster on a marginal message board". (Showing what you really think??)

How much more filled with self-importance do the GAs become?

Harmony? Who is Harmony? Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Or some US state?

[_harmony]

Apostles do meet with ordinary members of the Church. Apostles do visit ordinary members' homes. (I'm one of those ordinary members.)

You are not an ordinary member. You are a BYU professor. You are a world-renowned expert in your field. You know at least 10 of the 12 and probably have a passing acquaintance with all of them.

And exactly when was the last visit to an ordinary member's home by an apostle? Not a stake president; not a bishop... an ordinary member, like maybe the bulletin lady or the ward webmaster. When? And where? And more importantly: why?

But there are more than a million members on the books for each one of the Twelve. It's unreasonable to expect one of them to drop everything and make a lengthy pilgrimage to the home of a particular alienated member who has indicated that she doesn't want to talk to him...

Whoa back on that. I never said I didn't want to talk to any of them. I said in order for it to be demonstrated to me that there already is a mechanism for the Brethren to accurately access the minds and feelings of the rank and file, the impetus must come from them. Me approaching them does not accomplish the same thing as them approaching me.

I've been patronized and marginalized enough in my life in the church to not go out of my way to allow anyone, not even one of the Brethren, to do it to me again.

... merely because she's a vocal anonymous poster on a marginal message board.

A voice in the wilderness.

[_Ray A]

Ray, you don't know my heart.

But your declaration is fascinating, and I can now see better why you so passionately defend harmony's judgmentalism. You share it.

And you don't know mine.

And you, Dan, never engaged in "judgementalism".

[_Dr. Shades]

A lot has gone on within this thread since I last logged in, but it looks as though harmony has been offered an all-expenses-paid trip to meet, face-to-face, with a real, bona fide LDS apostle. Housing included. Is that right?

If so, harmony, I STRONGLY URGE you to cash this check! Heck, even I in my apostate state would LOVE to meet one of these guys in person!

This is, quite literally, the chance of a lifetime, and I think it would be crazy to pass it up. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, as they say.

[_The Nehor]

So at first the contention is that the Apostles never visit with ordinary members. This is shown to be false.

Then it is that Harmony can never meet with them. A way is shown that she can.

The stakes are raised yet again when she demands not only that she be heard but that change follow her meeting and her demands be met.

The goalposts keep moving.

[_Ray A]

So at first the contention is that the Apostles never visit with ordinary members. This is shown to be false.

Then it is that Harmony can never meet with them. A way is shown that she can.

The stakes are raised yet again when she demands not only that she be heard but that change follow her meeting and her demands be met.

The goalposts keep moving.

The voice of Christ himself.

[_The Nehor]

You are not an ordinary member. You are a BYU professor. You are a world-renowned expert in your field. You know at least 10 of the 12 and probably have a passing acquaintance with all of them.

And exactly when was the last visit to an ordinary member's home by an apostle? Not a stake president; not a bishop... an ordinary member, like maybe the bulletin lady or the ward webmaster. When? And where? And more importantly: why?

I'll do you one better. I know there is one Apostle who arriving in a new area sometimes asks the Stake President to take him to see less-actives. Many Seventies do this as well. They take their job seriously but they CAN'T visit individually with everyone. You've had an offer that would dodge the random factor and you still turn it down.

I'd like to offer to help too. I have enough Marriott Points to get you a room at a hotel for your stay and might be able to get you a rental car but I can't promise that, I'd need to check.

[_The Nehor]

So at first the contention is that the Apostles never visit with ordinary members. This is shown to be false.

Then it is that Harmony can never meet with them. A way is shown that she can.

The stakes are raised yet again when she demands not only that she be heard but that change follow her meeting and her demands be met.

The goalposts keep moving.

The voice of Christ himself.

I'm not the Messiah, I'm a very naughty boy.

[_harmony]

... her arrogation to herself of the right to judge them (without having even met them! at a distance!) as if she were God -- to which I objected at the beginning of this thread.

Not as if I was God. As if I was a member of God's church whose leaders refuse to show how they spend God's money, refuse to acknowledge that some of them at least live off the sweat of the brows of the members, refuse to do whatever is necessary to get a handle on the issues that plague the members, refuse to hear the criticisms that are leveled at them, even if they are legitimate.

I'm not asking for any changes in doctrine. I'm suggesting changes in policy, in culture, in practice. I'm suggesting that the leaders live by the lamp of their own conceit, not because they are not good men, but because they do NOT have a mechanism set up by which they can access ideas and suggestions from their own members. They live only by their own light, by their own ideas.

They probably think you're going to tell them what the ordinary members think, you and people like you, but not only is it obvious you aren't, I don't think you know either! And the reason why you don't know either is the same reason the Brethren don't know: you don't ask the right questions, and you don't probe behind the hero worship you encounter. And why? Because you don't want to know, and neither do the Brethren. As long as you can tell yourselves that all is well in Zion, you don't have to face the fact that all is not well in Zion.