From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

[_Yoda]

I believe Joseph was a prophet, right up until he laid down the mantle at the same time he laid down Fanny.

I love you, Harm!

[_Sethbag]

I think the seeming implicit suggestion of some here that religious people should dang well keep their religious beliefs out of funerals is a bit silly.

I have no opinion about what Lesellers did or did not mean, but BKP is on record saying what he said, and personally, I think it's absurd that humorous anecdotes from the life of the deceased are inappropriate at the funeral because they might interfere with the goal of converting people to Mormonism.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Thank you for your clarifications.

I believe Joseph was a prophet, right up until he laid down the mantle at the same time he laid down Fanny.

So you do, in fact, reject Joseph Smith as a prophet after 1833, which implies rejection of at least a substantial portion of the Doctrine and Covenants, virtually the entirety of the Pearl of Great Price, the ordinances of the temple, the doctrines "revealed" through him in Nauvoo (e.g., eternal marriage, human exaltation), etc.

I believe in Christ, in our Father, God, and in the Holy Ghost. I feel their presence and guidance in my life daily.

That, of course, while positive, is not uniquely Mormon.

What I think of their characters is only a sideline, but even that sideline is not extraordinary nor uncharitable.

We disagree.

So in order to be a member in your LDS church, I have to speak reverently of Joseph? I can't criticize him, comment on his behaviors, and I must be less than honest in my opinions of him? Good thing I'm not a member of your LDS church.

"My" LDS Church, of course, is the Church inhabited by several million believers whose attitudes, I suspect, would be far less sympathetic to and tolerant of your views than I am.

In our LDS Church, open contempt for Joseph Smith is, yes, a very negative thing. That doesn't mean being fawningly uncritical -- I've spoken to both the Church Curriculum Department and the Church magazines staff within the past two months, and both times I've taken occasion to criticize the too-common tendency for Latter-day Saints to deify their leaders, past and present -- but it does suggest respect. I regard Richard Bushman and his recent often-critical warts-and-all biography of the Prophet as models in this regard, and Richard has said both publicly and to me privately that his recent multiyear period of intense engagement with Joseph has, in fact, increased his respect for the man even while underlining the fact that Joseph was a man.

I do, however, doubt the word of the witnesses, but that's a commentary on them, not the book.

Actually, I suspect that it's a commentary on you rather than on them. But that's another subject.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I have no opinion about what Lesellers did or did not mean, but BKP is on record saying what he said, and personally, I think it's absurd that humorous anecdotes from the life of the deceased are inappropriate at the funeral because they might interfere with the goal of converting people to Mormonism.

I have my own opinions about funerals and what is appropriate in them.

But the opening post here wasn't about President Packer or President Packer's talk. It was about LeSeller's post on the board formerly known as FAIR, and about the responses to it there. And it grossly mischaracterized them. And others here built on the opening post's distortions.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I believe Joseph was a prophet, right up until he laid down the mantle at the same time he laid down Fanny.

As Dan noted, harmony, you pretty much have to disregard an awful lot if this is your position. Further, the concept of keys and authority tie into the actions Joseph Smith took in Nauvoo by passing said keys on to the 12. I wonder why you believe the current LDS church is the right church at all, you said you sustain the current brethren as prophets seers and revelators, but why? How did they get their authority from a fallen prophet who fell years before the quorum structure was completed for transmission of keys?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Good points, LOAP.

The Quorum of the Twelve, which eventually succeeded Joseph Smith, was established in 1835 by a man who, harmony says, had been a fallen prophet since 1833. Its members were chosen by the Three Witnesses, whose testimony harmony rejects.

[_John Larsen]

I believe Joseph was a prophet, right up until he laid down the mantle at the same time he laid down Fanny.

As Dan noted, harmony, you pretty much have to disregard an awful lot if this is your position. Further, the concept of keys and authority tie into the actions Joseph Smith took in Nauvoo by passing said keys on to the 12. I wonder why you believe the current LDS church is the right church at all, you said you sustain the current brethren as prophets seers and revelators, but why? How did they get their authority from a fallen prophet who fell years before the quorum structure was completed for transmission of keys?

Good points, LOAP.

The Quorum of the Twelve, which eventually succeeded Joseph Smith, was established in 1835 by a man who, harmony says, had been a fallen prophet since 1833. Its members were chosen by the Three Witnesses, whose testimony harmony rejects.

I agree with both of you. None of it makes sense. The best thing to do is just lay it down and walk away quietly. I am sure Dr. Peterson could land a book deal out of it thought.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Not one more. They're almost all connected. Polygamy is connected to the temple ceremony which is connected to the veil which is connected to the patronization and marginalization of women which is connected to the lack of respect given to women which is connected to the basic reason I am so disappointed in the church.

You've pretty well made my point, which is that you are not a typical rank-and-file member of the Church, and that you really aren't Mormon in any meaningful sense any more.

I think the typical rank & file female member often feels as harmony does on these issues: polygamy and the 2nd class treatment of women by the Church institution remain very touchy and painful issues for many LDS women.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

and that you really aren't Mormon in any meaningful sense any more.

So then BISHOP, please do tell, ENLIGHTEN us with your bishoPRIC insight as to how a meaningful Mormon show behave.

Like you?

God, let's hope not.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

But a person who disdains the Church's current leadership ....

She doesn't -- just some of their actions.

... speaks contemptuously of Joseph Smith ....

Not him, just some of his actions.

... rejects the Doctrine and Covenants ....

I haven't read this from her (except perhaps for D&C 132, which many "meaningful" members have a problem with).

... doesn't seem very Mormon.

Nor do you in many ways.

S/he may well be a fine person, but there are plenty of fine persons who aren't LDS.

And many not-so-fine persons who are ... wink, wink ....