"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

This offer made to Harmony is sheer condescension. You're offering her a meeting with a leader who believes that anyone who doesn't follow his (their) words, they is "Living by the lamp of their own conceit." That's a whole lot of arrogance to go up against. Some of you might want to take a second look at that judgment. Those of you who actually accept that premise in the first place are the ones with a problem.

[_solomarineris]

I love your passion!

Do you have a proposed solution?

Sure, not that anyone will ever hear it:

1. Open the books and restore the trust that's been missing for almost 50 years. Even if they don't know it, the members have been and are being cheated.

2. Develop a mechanism by which rank and file members will be regularly accessed by leaders from the highest level. Get past their hero worship and actually listen to what the members say, even when what they say is not what you want to hear.

3. Live humbly, acknowledging that your roof and your daily bread comes from the labor of others.

4. Listen to those who have been hurt by the church. Get past their anger and actually hear the underlying pain.

5. Address the dysfunctional aspects of Mormon culture. Nothing is exempt.

6. Treat all members alike.

Right, hm, hm....The Brass is gonna do that just now....
Did you watch the Movie Apocalypto, when those Mayan Elite were sitting & watching while Head Priest kept rolling heads?
Those guys are way up there, minus killings & violence.

[_Pokatator]

This offer made to Harmony is sheer condescension. You're offering her a meeting with a leader who believes that anyone who doesn't follow his (their) words, they is "Living by the lamp of their own conceit." That's a whole lot of arrogance to go up against. Some of you might want to take a second look at that judgment. Those of you who actually accept that premise in the first place are the ones with a problem.

Thank you Lucretia and I agree. It's time for them to give it up. The "boys" have been behaving like boys in a school yard that need to grow some nads or a least theirs hasn't dropped yet.

13 pages of harping about getting someone else to go the 12. Just like a neener, neener, neerer or a double dog dare. 13 pages on not addressing the points made in the OP and 13 pages of not addressing 6 points offered for a solution. Just enable and rescue the prophet and the 12 from some anonymous poster on a internet message board.

Your enabling and rescuing just allows the prophet and the 12 to "live by the lamp of their own conceit". It is what the members are taught to do, not think, just follow, the thinking has been done and the light of the lamp continues.

You boys can brag about meeting with the 12, flying on planes with them, having them at your house or just plain have easy and sure access to them. A question, Why not just have the nads to take the complaints and 6 suggestions to them yourself and come back and report? I doubt this is an option for you boys because you can't even address the issues here. I would guess that the conversation, in the unlikely event that it were to take place, would turn into a discussion of the person that was making the complaints and suggestions. Just as it has here.

While I do believe that on the surface your offers of killing the fatted pig and free air fare and free room and taxi all sound very generous I believe your underlying motives are disingenuous and yes, condescending.

If Harmony were to come, on her own, to Utah to visit and dine I would love to drive from Idaho to meet her. The fatted pig would be beyond great if I could have a Henry's Special Dark to go with it. Even meeting you guys and/or one of the 12 would be a highlight but it wouldn't be as bright for me as meeting Harmony.

But meeting with an elite church official would be of no consequence to me but I believe as it has been stated before would cause problems for someone that is a member and wants to remain a member.

I am sure that Dr. Dan, Big Up, Nehor, Mr. Plate and etc. that you guys are probably OK guys for the most part and like everyone else the image on and off line are different but this fun you had at Harmony's expense should be over.

Now how about addressing the issues of the first few posts on this thread? Why? ..... so you can take an informed discussion to the 12????

[_GoodK]

This offer made to Harmony is sheer condescension. You're offering her a meeting with a leader who believes that anyone who doesn't follow his (their) words, they is "Living by the lamp of their own conceit." That's a whole lot of arrogance to go up against. Some of you might want to take a second look at that judgment. Those of you who actually accept that premise in the first place are the ones with a problem.

In addition to that, the offer made to Harmony is a bluff. Tommy Reed could see that.

[_Daniel Peterson]

In addition to that, the offer made to Harmony is a bluff.

I doubt that LOAP and Lamanite were bluffing.

I most definitely wasn't.

[_harmony]

In addition to that, the offer made to Harmony is a bluff.

I doubt that LOAP and Lamanite were bluffing.

I most definitely wasn't.

Well, then, can I expect you to make the effort to be at dinner when I'm in SLC next? I'll have to take off my professional nametag and make one that says "harmony", so no one gets confused.

[_GoodK]

Well, then, can I expect you to make the effort to be at dinner when I'm in SLC next? I'll have to take off my professional nametag and make one that says "harmony", so no one gets confused.

I wouldn't skip any meals waiting for this to happen.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Well, then, can I expect you to make the effort to be at dinner when I'm in SLC next? I'll have to take off my professional nametag and make one that says "harmony", so no one gets confused.

If I'm in town and it fits my schedule -- I live roughly an hour south of Salt Lake City, by the way -- I'll be there.

(And I certainly won't stand you up.)

[_LifeOnaPlate]

You boys can brag about meeting with the 12, flying on planes with them, having them at your house or just plain have easy and sure access to them.

I've only met apostles by coincidence. I've never had an interview with an apostle. I am pretty certain none of them know who I am.

A question, Why not just have the nads to take the complaints and 6 suggestions to them yourself and come back and report? I doubt this is an option for you boys because you can't even address the issues here. I would guess that the conversation, in the unlikely event that it were to take place, would turn into a discussion of the person that was making the complaints and suggestions. Just as it has here.

Why would I meet with a member of the 12 and go over complaints of a person on the Internet, with whom I don't agree?

While I do believe that on the surface your offers of killing the fatted pig and free air fare and free room and taxi all sound very generous I believe your underlying motives are disingenuous and yes, condescending.

Well, if my opinion matters regarding my own motives I can assure you my offer is not disingenuous. "Condescending" is an accusation perhaps more usually adjudicated by the recipient, but I certainly intended no condescension.

I am sure that Dr. Dan, Big Up, Nehor, Mr. Plate and etc. that you guys are probably OK guys for the most part and like everyone else the image on and off line are different but this fun you had at Harmony's expense should be over.

I'm not attempting any fun at harmony's expense. Again, I am sincere in my offer and it remains extended. Further, who I am online is pretty much who I am in person. I don't hide behind a fake name here, etc.

[_harmony]

I'm not attempting any fun at harmony's expense. Again, I am sincere in my offer and it remains extended. Further, who I am online is pretty much who I am in person. I don't hide behind a fake name here, etc.

Your mother named you LifeonaPlate?

Actually, I'm known as harmony in real life too. I have a granddaughter who is named after me. Her name is Lily Harmony.