From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

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_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Daniel Peterson wrote:"My" LDS Church, of course, is the Church inhabited by several million believers whose attitudes, I suspect, would be far less sympathetic to and tolerant of your views than I am.

I think this statement is completely false.

In our LDS Church, open contempt for Joseph Smith is, yes, a very negative thing.

One man's "open contempt" can be another's "legitimate criticism."

That doesn't mean being fawningly uncritical ....

That's exactly what has happened in today's institutional Church.

... but it does suggest respect.

Bedding a teenage servant girl doesn't "suggest respect," even for Joseph.

I regard Richard Bushman and his recent often-critical warts-and-all biography of the Prophet as models in is regard, and Richard has said both publicly and to me privately that his recent multiyear period of intense engagement with Joseph has, in fact, increased his respect for the man even while underlining the fact that Joseph was a man.

But it's clear from the bio that Bushman has real problems with some of Joseph's actions, and neither condones nor "respects" those actions.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:I wonder why you believe the current LDS church is the right church at all, you said you sustain the current brethren as prophets seers and revelators, but why? How did they get their authority from a fallen prophet who fell years before the quorum structure was completed for transmission of keys?

The same way you can rationalize Joseph's taking polyamous wife Fanny Alger before the sealing power of marriage was restored to Joseph in 1836.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

We disagree about a very great deal, Scrollo. I'm fine with that.






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_harmony
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _harmony »

We disagree about a great many things, Daniel, and I'm fine with that.

I'm wondering why you felt it necessary to twist Rollo's name? Was that intended as a personal attack, although somewhat sideways?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:I'm wondering why you felt it necessary to twist Rollo's name? Was that intended as a personal attack, although somewhat sideways?

That was intended to signify that Scratch and Rollo are so ideologically akin that I'm not altogether sure that they're two distinct individuals, just as I'm not sure that the Scratch/Gadianton/Kishkumen Tri-Unity really represents three separate people. Maybe so. Probably so. But there's been just a bit too much of the "Very well said, Dr. Robbers" and the "Care to expand upon that excellent insight, Kishkumen" business for me to be entirely confident that the seeming mutual admiration isn't an artifact of internet anonymity.
_collegeterrace
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _collegeterrace »

harmony wrote:We disagree about a great many things, Daniel, and I'm fine with that.

I'm wondering why you felt it necessary to twist Rollo's name? Was that intended as a personal attack, although somewhat sideways?
Yeah. Shall we start calling Dan, (Edited by Liz for personal attack.)
... our church isn't true, but we have to keep up appearances so we don't get shunned by our friends and family, fired from our jobs, kicked out of our homes, ... Please don't tell on me. ~maklelan
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

collegeterrace wrote:Yeah. Shall we start calling Dan, (Edited by Liz for personal attack.)

Go ahead, PP. It's about time that you made some contribution to the board and to American intellectual life. This could be your moment. Seize it.
_Sethbag
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Sethbag »

I completely and totally cannot comprehend what Harmony still sees in the church that would justify it being "true" in some non-trivial way, but I don't think that her views are any more nor less convoluted and hard to understand than the twisting and mental gymnastics the apologists go through to explain away Joseph Smith's rampant adultery and the invention of scripture. She twists and turns and squirms in one way, and you guys twist and turn and squirm in other ways, but it's the same breed of logic.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

It's always interesting to me to see how differently things appear from different vantage points.
_Sethbag
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Re: From the MA&D house: LDS have no respect at funerals

Post by _Sethbag »

Daniel Peterson wrote:It's always interesting to me to see how differently things appear from different vantage points.

I agree. And it's important for us all to remember that from the other guy's vantage point, his views make perfect sense. It's part and parcel of holding a self-contained, self-supporting, and self-justifying worldview - and none of us ever completely escape from that.

I still remember what it felt like to be 100% sure the church was true, so I can understand how apologists' logic can make sense to them.

ps: There was a time (whose span was measured in decades) where I would have latched onto LDS apologetic arguments and believed they truly made sense. What happened to change that was that I saw some pretty awful arguments in defense of the church, against some pretty good evidence, and I realized the apologists were defending the indefensible. For me that realization was like pricking a bubble - the conviction that my beliefs must be true popped like that bubble, and once I decided not to accept bad apologetics anymore and take the evidence seriously, no matter what that meant for my beliefs, it's just become more and more obvious as time went on that the church really is just as manmade as any other church, and the totally convinced apologists just as self-deluded as those of any other church, such as the JWs.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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