A question about Fawn Brodie

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_rcrocket

Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _rcrocket »

harmony wrote:
rcrocket wrote:I think Duffy, or whatever is his gay name, goes way too far into what I call, and self-definedly so, the fallacy of self-definition. Define it the way you want it and all else falls into your little petty world.

An example of self-definition is to characterize Mormons as Iron Rodders or Liahonas (Richard Poll), or to rip off that concept with Chapel vs. Internet Mormons.

John Charles-Duffy, I must concede fails to see the deeper issues of faith and sociology as he gets lost in his petty world of self-congratulation. And your posts are just naïve and [MOD: Edited out for gratuitous insults].


Classic. Attacking the messenger instead of the message.


You once again don't understand the difference between a personal attack and one which is not. [It is so painfully obvious; you spend gallons of internet ink attacking the personal lives of living people, accusing living persons of fraud and corruption, yet that little gnat for which you strain causes you to cry foul and personal attack whenever someone posts something you don't really like. I don't really have too much issue with your particular posts, but really now, when you accuse me of a personal attack get it right. A personal attack is to say: "He shouldn't be trusted because he works for BYU." "He shouldn't be trusted because he's a lawyer." "He shouldn't be trusted because he's gay." But not, "His writing style is self-definitional." The latter is a really classic way of how reviewers review pieces.]

John Charles-Duffy is a prolific writer and his writing style is quite familiar to those of us who read his publications. Since I know absolutely nothing about him personally, other than that he is gay (not that there is anything wrong with that), all I can do is criticize what he writes. His writing is self-absorbed, to a small degree, and self-definitional, to a large degree. One other way to characterize his writing is as a tempest in a teapot -- a teapot he designs and a tempest he stirs. The article the OP pointed me to is particularly exemplary of this problem.
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Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _Lamanite »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Mercury wrote:http://question-everything.mahost.org/Archive/chomskyspain.html

Take this and post something in the morning.


Take this and post something in a few months.

http://www.amazon.com/That-Noble-Dream- ... 0521357454



You get my vote for funniest post for both 2008 and 2009.


Be weezy leezy! Chuurch!

Lamanite
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Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _Mercury »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:I agree that some LDS publications have the same tendency, no doubt. This does not, however, vindicate Brodie's approach or conclusions.


Please enlighten me on wht LDS publications do not follow this pattern you mention.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
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Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

rcrocket wrote:I recall Rollo's repeated claims that Quinn has been unable to get a job due to Mormon blackballing when Quinn was asked this question in a Sunstone presentation and denied it.

I'm not sure to what exactly you are referring. Could it be the WSJ front-page article about Quinn (which you originally posted, by the way)?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_rcrocket

Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _rcrocket »

Don't be disingenuous. You know what I am talking about.
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Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Mercury wrote:
LifeOnaPlate wrote:I agree that some LDS publications have the same tendency, no doubt. This does not, however, vindicate Brodie's approach or conclusions.


Please enlighten me on wht LDS publications do not follow this pattern you mention.


Since we are specifically discussing "history" I'll discuss a few examples. Writing history necessarily involves selection. There is a literal "art" to historical inquiry and construction. The "past" is not a collection of ready-made bricks waiting to be dug from the earth and placed on display as "objective truth." Historians work with historical data and attempt to shape it into narrative (or at least chronology). As noted, people who create historical accounts can do violence to data, misrepresent information, omit crucial aspects of evidence by ignorance or even on purpose, stack the deck, etc. I've seen pro and anti LDS books do this.

I believe Brodie started with the premise that angels, gold plates and miracles from God don't really exist, that Joseph Smith was a fraud. This approach reminds me of what Dale Morgan famously pointed out in a letter to Juanita Brooks:

With my point of view on God, I am incapable of accepting the claims of Joseph Smith and the Mormons, be they however so convincing. If God does not exist, how can Joseph Smith's story have any possible validity? I will look everywhere for explanations except to the ONE explanation that is the position of the church. (Morgan to Brooks, Dec. 15, 1945. See John Phillip Walker, ed., Dale Morgan on Early Mormonism: Correspondence and a New History (Signature Books, 1986), p. 87.


Nibley's screed on Brodie's book wasn't his best work (it is entertaining, though). It contains some assertions with which I heartily disagree, but despite its flaws he still raises very good and critical points on what information critics of JSmith include in their accounts and what historical records receive the highest billing. One would rightly keep in mind that Nibley does believe angels, gold plates, etc. are possibilities. On Joseph Smith and his critics he said:

The only authority for what John says is John, and the only acceptable authority for Joseph Smith's story is Joseph Smith, not the Whitmers or Willard Chase or Pomeroy Tucker. Some critics, for example, seem to think that if they can show that a friend or enemy of Joseph Smith reports him as saying that he was visited by Nephi, they have caught the Prophet in a fraud.15 It has, moreover, long been an axiom with anti-Mormon writers that if Joseph Smith's enemies tell wildly conflicting stories about him, that does not prove that they are lying, but that he deceived and tricked them all! ("Censoring the Joseph Smith Story," Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass, pp. 55—101.)


First, I disagree with Nibley's statement that "the only acceptable authority for Joseph Smith's story is Joseph Smith." I do, however, place Smith's account of his own experience as a crucial starting point. The closer to the event the better, etc. Still, it is his account. Other accounts should be weighed by how the informant came to their conclusions, how late the account is, where it was published and why, etc. These questions apply equally to JSmith's account. Then we can try to discover what the most credible telling is. at the least we can accurately show what some people claimed about the event. Nibley aptly points out how historians can re-interpret pretty much anything to fit their already-constructed theory. If Smith's words contradict the words of his critics, he must be lying, not them, etc.

Bushman noticed a similar thing in regards to how people treat Smith's first vision accounts. After quoting the 1832 account he said:

...however cleverly managed, the passage captivates a reader, making it hard to doubt Joseph's sincerity. Inserting too much of language like this into a secular account would diffuse the search for Book of Mormon sources and turn attention to Joseph's desire to comply with the will of heaven. Mormons, on the other hand, love every word of it. In this sense, believing historians are more inclined to be true to the basic sources than unbelieving ones. (Richard Bushman, "The Recovery of the Book of Mormon," Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins by Noel B. Reynolds.)


I see a tendency to downplay some of the best Book of Mormon witness statements in favor of more convoluted ones in attempts to show the unreliability of the former. The point is, historians get to make decisions on what to include, not to include, and how to interpret what they include. There is nothing really wrong with this, it seems rather unavoidable. It is up to the historian to attempt fairness and accuracy, but "objectivity" is something that remains to be shown as absolutely possible.

To return to your previous question, though, regarding "what LDS publications do not follow this pattern you mention," I don't see any history books that don't follow a pattern of selection, Some do so better than others, in my opinion. I just finished one, Kathleen Flake's The Politics of American Religious Identity: The Seating of Senator Reed Smoot, Mormon Apostle, (University of North Carolina Press). I strongly recommend this book as far superior, historically speaking, to Brodie's No Man Knows.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
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Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

rcrocket wrote:Don't be disingenuous. You know what I am talking about.

Actually, I don't. Are you referring to my comments about the WSJ article?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_rcrocket

Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _rcrocket »

Lamanite wrote:All I'm saying is that if she would have walked up to the Church Historian (Joseph Fielding Smith?) at the time and said, "I'm a heretic and would like to write a biography of Joseph Smith that would be contrary to the teachings and beliefs of the Church; can I take a peek at his personal papers?" I'm sure she would have been shown the door. But at least she could say she was honest.

Out to shred the prophet, to be sure. Open and upfront about it? Not in the least.



Disparaging somebody because they have a "hidden agenda" is a pretty poor attempt at a comment. There wasn't anything hidden. Everybody associated with Brodie knew that her work wasn't going to be popular with the Brethren. She was upfront with David O'McKay about what she wanted to see and why she wanted to see it.

I'd be curious if you could point to any biography, either hers (Newell Bringhurst), McKay's (Prince) or Brooks (Peterson) where the claim is made that she hid her motives.

The reason I make this point and continue to make it is that it is farcical to claim that the Brethren were blindsided and victimized by the book, or that the Brethren closed the archives to Brodie. Neither occurred. They opened the archives to her with full knowledge of where things were headed. (What they did after the book was published is a different matter.) According to her published interview, which may or may not have been truthful, she didn't need the LDS archives for her work.

I applaud you for being a faithful Saint, and believe along with you, but don't get sucked into the ridiculous jargon of the combatants -- jargon which means nothing.
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Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

rcrocket wrote:If you'll check the interview, you'll see that she was granted access but chose not to use the archives -- at least what she was interested in.

Here's the relevant excerpt from the Brodie interview (bold mine for emphasis):

Q: Were you allowed ample access to records and manuscripts when you were writing the book?

A: Almost all of the material in the book came from three great libraries. At the University of Chicago, where I was working after I married Bernard, there was really a great collection of western New York State history so by going through the material I was able to find out something about the sources of Joseph Smith's ideas, particularly the ideas which went into the writing of the Book of Mormon. I finally ended up going to Albany, NY, where all the newspapers were kept which were published in Joseph Smith's own hometown in Palmyra, NY. So I was able to read the newspapers he had read as a young man. This turned out to be an absolute gold mine!

A lot of the theories about the American Indians being descendants of the Lost Ten Tribes and the descriptions of what were being found in the Indian mounds were in the newspapers. The speculation was there. That was extremely important as was the anti-Masonic material. The anti-Masonic excitement was very strong at that time. Then I went to the Library of Congress and the New York Public Library. The New York Public Library has the best Mormon collection in the country outside of Salt Lake City, Utah.

I did go to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at Independence, MO, and I did go to the library of Salt Lake City for some periodicals, early Mormon periodicals that I couldn't get anywhere else. I was permitted to see those, but I was not permitted to see any manuscript material.

Q: Are those church archives open now? I read a comment indicating that it was believed that your book would open archival material.

A: It had the reverse effect. The archives were largely closed to scholars after my book came out. But in recent years they have become open again. The new man who is head of the church historian's office, Leonard Arrington, a fine historian, is much more liberal in his attitude than the older historians. The younger scholars are now being given access to the archives in a way they were not before. I think this was long overdue but a very good trend.

Q: Was there a fear that someone else would do the same thing you did?

A: That's right. I think I should be very exact in my statement. It is not quite true to say the manuscript sources were denied to me. I had been told that there was a "diary of Joseph Smith" (click image to left) in his own handwriting, written when he was in his early twenties. I knew one man at the Brigham Young University, who is now dead, who had seen it and read it. But when I asked to see it, I was told I could not see it. Then I had a very long, and very difficult interview with my uncle, David O. McKay.

Afterward, he told me I could see the manuscript but by this time the family situation had become so delicate that I felt that I would rather not take advantage of my uncle's name to use this material. I wrote to him saying I would not ask for any more material and I never went back to the church library. So, technically, I was given access, but I didn't use it. It was made very clear to me that it was an extremely difficult family situation, so that is the way I handled it
.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_rcrocket

Re: A question about Fawn Brodie

Post by _rcrocket »

Yes. You're late to this discussion.

I'm not sure I believe it. It would make sense to say that she was denied access, and I don't know why she claims she wasn't.

I lack Bringhurst's bio of Brodie to see what he says.
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