An Interesting Encounter With A Young Lady.

[_Ray A]

Fantasy Ray. One of the tip offs was right at the beginning when he says "I had absolute certainty that there was nothing beyond this life – because that was how really smart people understood it."

Uh? So in other words this story is for people who believe in an after life but have been made to feel inferior by non-believers who think they are so smart. It shows his negative sarcastic attitude, Ray towards non believers. And no one that I know claims to know with absolute certainty what is beyond death, they may say what they believe but don't claim certainty. So what he does is paint non-believers as being dogmatic, rather than as being skeptical.

So you're open to the possibility of life after death?

[_Trevor]

Speaking of NDEs... I have a crazy aunt whose NDE story appears in one of those LDS volumes entitled, Beyond the Veil. In her case, however, I am fairly confident that she made the story up. Strangely, she failed to mention this NDE to anyone else until NDEs became a popular phenomenon. Then suddenly....

By the way, I have no reason to doubt that the young woman who spoke with Ray A was sincere.
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[_Ray A]

Speaking of NDEs... I have a crazy aunt whose NDE story appears in one of those LDS volumes entitled, Beyond the Veil. In her case, however, I am fairly confident that she made the story up. Strangely, she failed to mention this NDE to anyone else until NDEs became a popular phenomenon. Then suddenly....

There's as much fraud in this field as anywhere else, Trev. And it would be naïve think otherwise. Sorting out the genuine ones is the task of serious NDE researchers, and it's not easy work, as the truth is often mingled with the philosophies of NDErs.

By the way, I have no reason to doubt that the young woman who spoke with Ray A was sincere.

I don't, either, primarily because I just happened to be there when she was talking to me. If she had talked about riding on a broomstick at 2am, even as gullible as I am, I might have doubted her sincerity. But she spoke of other phenomena I could relate to. My only regret is that we are now probably forever out of contact. I know where the Christian Lighthouse Ministry is, but they don't impress me one whit. I will not be venturing into such arenas.

The other thing I didn't mention was the great affection and love between her and her mother (who was dropped off first). If you believe some here, all of that was also "fabricated", and "lies". She actually hates her mother, but it was an Evangelistic ploy for their ultimate aim: To get me to church. It was all pretend so I'd be impressed.

[_Trevor]

The other thing I didn't mention was the great affection and love between her and her mother (who was dropped off first). If you believe some here, all of that was also "fabricated", and "lies". She actually hates her mother, but it was an Evangelistic ploy for their ultimate aim: To get me to church. It was all pretend so I'd be impressed.

Maybe it was actually some Byzantine Mopologetic plot against you, Ray A. This young woman is a sleeper agent, a sort of "Manchurian candidate" to turn you into a committed theist once again. Next stop, Lehi's trail!

[_Ray A]

Next stop, Lehi's trail!

Or in other words, pin the tail on the donkey.

[_marg]

I don't know how much you buy into Storm's story. But for argument sake I'll assume that you do but let's say you don't think it really happened you think it only a dream or an hallucination, I wouldn't call you gullible on that.

I think it's fascinating and interesting, but I have no final verdict on its veracity. The similarity to the young lady's experience was interesting to me, hence the title of the thread, "an interesting encounter".

You have no opinion on Storm's story? You think it might really have happened?

Had I titled it, "Proof of Afterlife", I could understand your and AS8's consternation. But, apparently, an "interesting conversation" with some parallels I noticed, is turned into a young lady who is a fabricator, liar and deceiver who was ONLY out to "evangelise" me.

All I can say is - WOW!

"consternation" ? No Ray, you asked for an opinion? Both AS8 & I don't believe these people, whom you do.

Look Ray, do you believe that sleeping with a Bible will get rid of horrendous, hellish nightmares? Do you believe that turning Christian and believing in the Christian God will get rid of those same nightmares.

Do you think those nightmares she claims to have had...would have disappeared because of the reasoning she gave?

So now we get to the crux of the matter, "do I really believe???" (gullible believer again).

Let me again remind you of the title of the thread, "an interesting conversation.....", especially for AS8:

You asked me a question which was "And do you accept that I accept they are not liars? Without referring to me as a "guillible believer"?" In order for me to answer that, I need to ask you further questions to determine if I think you are gullible or not. I need to see what you believe and your reasoning for that.

There's so much more out there." As a result of her experience she's now a Christian (I was glad I didn't get any proselyting approaches, however).

But, apparently, I'm too gullible, and she WAS really "evangelising me", and AS8 "knows this", and I don't. WOW! I am really, really dumb.

It's quite possible she was Ray. I do agree with AS8, it sounds to me like she was. It sounds like a storyline she gives lots of people who will listen.

And once more with vigour, for you and AS8:

I should add too that I really liked the sincere and non-preachy way she talked to me. It was all so matter-of-fact. She has only been going to Church for six months, and I just hope she doesn't get tainted later on by the facade and corruption and ulterior motivations of so much in religion, and which turns so many off and often makes them narrow-minded bigots.

You said her mom was Christian, it's very unlikely this churchy stuff is new to her.

But I'm really, really, dumb. You and AS8, on the other end of cyberspace, who never met the lady, and ignored what I wrote in the OP, jump in with "liar, Evangelist, fabricator, deceiver, juvenile, puerile....."


WOW! Is all I can say.

WOW! Sorry I gave an opinion which differs to yours.

[_marg]

Fantasy Ray. One of the tip offs was right at the beginning when he says "I had absolute certainty that there was nothing beyond this life – because that was how really smart people understood it."

Uh? So in other words this story is for people who believe in an after life but have been made to feel inferior by non-believers who think they are so smart. It shows his negative sarcastic attitude, Ray towards non believers. And no one that I know claims to know with absolute certainty what is beyond death, they may say what they believe but don't claim certainty. So what he does is paint non-believers as being dogmatic, rather than as being skeptical.

So you're open to the possibility of life after death?

Of course Ray, but it has to be evidence which commensurates with the claim made and stories told won't suffice.

[_Ray A]

Of course Ray, but it has to be evidence which commensurates with the claim made and stories told won't suffice.

What will suffice?

[_marg]

Of course Ray, but it has to be evidence which commensurates with the claim made and stories told won't suffice.

What will suffice?

I don't know Ray, that's not for me to determine..that's for those making the claims. Anecdotal stories just don't cut it.

[_antishock8]

Ok. Let's review the Young Lady and her "story":

On Sunday night I had the opportunity to talk to a young lady who was atheist (so she said) but experienced a range of social-emotional problems.

Notice the set up. She's an Atheist. Attached to that idea are the ideas of social and emotional problems. Ray automatically linked her "issues" with that of being an Atheist.

She said that for a long time she had "awful nightmares" in which she felt like she was in what is commonly described as hell. She didn't believe in hell at the time, but felt that what she experienced would be hell if she did believe it.

The background details. So now we have this supposed non-Believer dreaming, clearly (and to the target audience's horror) of Hell. Is she receiving a Heavenly or Hellish message from Beyond? Is this a self-induced psychosis? *GASP* I can't wait to read the rest of the story!! Let's find out!!!

She said that she started going to Church (Christian Lighthouse Centre), and also reading the Bible, and her nightmares gradually stopped (apparently her mother is a Christian). "I would sleep with the Bible next to me at night, and eventually the hellish nightmares stopped altogether".

The hook! This Atheist merely happened upon the idea that going to a Christian church and reading the Christian Bible would be a good idea for whatever reason! It's a miracle! And you know what's even better?? Her Hellish nightmares stopped!!!! MIRACLE OF MIRACLES!!! Hosannah!!

The confident way in which she talked to me was evidence that she felt at peace.

Yes yes, because con men and women know that being insecure is the best way to propagate a deception. C'mon, now.

"I'm studying science at university now, and want to pursue a career in some field of science, but there's a lot we don't know; science only scratches the surface, in my opinion. There's so much more out there."

And then, when wanting to lend credibility to one's self, the Religionist claims a desire for secular learning. Why is that? Why do Believers need the credibility of secular learning in order to bolster one's religiosity?

But notice the last little sentence:

There's so much more out there.

Once again the insinuation that God or the metaphysical is yours if you just go for it.

As a result of her experience she's now a Christian (I was glad I didn't get any proselyting approaches, however). "I don't know if it's all true," she said, "that people can be in hell forever, but I don't want to risk it because of what I've experienced, so I've changed my life by going to church and believing in God."

Color me shocked. Ray was proselyted, and perhaps is doing a bit of his own with relating this "story", and claims he wasn't evangelized. C'mon, now.

She wraps up her story with a nice little testimonkey, and a solution for the target audience, who, it is assumed, will also draw their own parallels to the story and be moved to seek Jesus Christ and His Eternal Salvation.

Head in the hat, Ray. Head in the hat.