First vision... is this really true?

[_Nevo]

Would it not be just as easy, and just as supportable, to hypothesize that Joseph took the fragments from the Book of Mormon that Vogel is talking about, and used them in a later synthesis of a First Vision story? Not only does it account for the existence of whatever fragments Vogel was talking about and the First Vision, but is also consistent with the deafening silence about the First Vision during the church's earlier years.

I wouldn't say there was a deafening silence. After all, there is an allusion to the First Vision in D&C 20, one of the foundational documents of the Church. The earliest known version of section 20 dates to June 1829.

[_gramps]

Hi Nevo. Do you mean to refer to verse 6 of Section 20?

Just wondering, so that I can keep up with your discussion here.

[_Sethbag]

Would it not be just as easy, and just as supportable, to hypothesize that Joseph took the fragments from the Book of Mormon that Vogel is talking about, and used them in a later synthesis of a First Vision story? Not only does it account for the existence of whatever fragments Vogel was talking about and the First Vision, but is also consistent with the deafening silence about the First Vision during the church's earlier years.

So you think it's reasonable to say that the Book of Mormon came first? Kind of a chicken/egg thing?

The Book of Mormon coming first is certainly consistent with the earliest FV accounts being only of an angel, and not God and Jesus. These are consistent with references by later apostles or BY or whatever that Moroni was Joseph Smith's first supernatural visitor. And it's consistent with the Book of Mormon having been published long before the FV story, in its current character as a visit by God and Jesus telling Joseph he was called to be the Prophet and whatnot, rather than just forgiving sins.

[_Sethbag]

Would it not be just as easy, and just as supportable, to hypothesize that Joseph took the fragments from the Book of Mormon that Vogel is talking about, and used them in a later synthesis of a First Vision story? Not only does it account for the existence of whatever fragments Vogel was talking about and the First Vision, but is also consistent with the deafening silence about the First Vision during the church's earlier years.

I wouldn't say there was a deafening silence. After all, there is an allusion to the First Vision in D&C 20, one of the foundational documents of the Church. The earliest known version of section 20 dates to June 1829.

You'll have to excuse me, but I went back and re-read D&C 20 after you wrote this, to see what you were talking about, and I haven't got a freaking clue. What verses in D&C 20 do you believe represent an allusion to the First Vision?

[_Nevo]

You'll have to excuse me, but I went back and re-read D&C 20 after you wrote this, to see what you were talking about, and I haven't got a freaking clue. What verses in D&C 20 do you believe represent an allusion to the First Vision?

Verse 5. Here's the context:

5 After it was truly manifested unto this first elder that he had received a remission of his sins, he was entangled again in the vanities of the world;
6 But after repenting, and humbling himself sincerely, through faith, God ministered unto him by an holy angel, whose countenance was as lightning, and whose garments were pure and white above all other whiteness;
7 And gave unto him commandments which inspired him;
8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon . . .

When read against Joseph's 1832 account, it is apparent that v. 5 refers to the First Vision, while vv. 6-8 refer to the subsequent visitation/vision(s) of Moroni.

[F]rom the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the sittuation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the minds of mankind my mind become excedingly distressed for I become convicted of my Sins and by Searching the Scriptures I found that <mankind> did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament and I felt to mourn for my own Sins and for the Sins of the world . . .

and when I considered all these things and that <that> being seeketh such to worship him as wors=hip him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderne=ss and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a piller of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of God and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my Son> thy Sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the Gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophe=ts and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] wr=itten of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father

and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart . . . but after many days I fell into transgression and sinned in many things which brought a wound upon my soul and there were many things which transpired that cannot be writen and my Fathers family have suffered many persicutions and afflictions and it came to pass when I was seventeen years of Age I called again upon the Lord and he shewed unto me a heavenly vision for behold an angel of the Lord came and stood before me and it was by night and he called me by name and he said the Lord had forgiven me my sins and he revealed unto me that in the Town of Manchester[,] Ontario County[,] N.Y. there was plates of gold upon which there was engravings which was engraven by Maroni & his fathers the servants of the living God in ancient days and deposited by the commandments of God and kept by the power thereof and that I should go and get them and he revealed unto me many things concerning the inhabitants of of the earth which since have been revealed in com=mandments & revelations . . .

--Joseph Smith, History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook, 1:1-3, Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Archives.

[_Inconceivable]

"but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart . ."

Smith 1832

Difficult to find someone that believes you when you don't tell anyone.

Same reason why the robbers never find the cops.

[_Nevo]

"but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart . ."

Smith 1832

Difficult to find someone that believes you when you don't tell anyone.

But he did tell someone: a Methodist preacher. And there may have been others. The preacher's negative reaction effectively discouraged further tellings, and his reluctance to relate the experience (which he interpreted primarily in terms of personal forgiveness of sins) probably increased when he became "entangled again in the vanities of the world."

[_Inconceivable]

But he did tell someone: a Methodist preacher.

And the preacher told his peers and congregation, creating "..no small stir" and an avalanche of persecution (starting from time he was 14).

Unfortunately for the hopefull (or faithfull), not one shred of evidence has come forward to SUBSTANTIATE even this claim.

Not one shred. Zero. Nada. Bunkis. Zilch. A big hole.

12 years.

[_harmony]

So you think it's reasonable to say that the Book of Mormon came first? Kind of a chicken/egg thing?

The Book of Mormon coming first is certainly consistent with the earliest FV accounts being only of an angel, and not God and Jesus. These are consistent with references by later apostles or BY or whatever that Moroni was Joseph Smith's first supernatural visitor. And it's consistent with the Book of Mormon having been published long before the FV story, in its current character as a visit by God and Jesus telling Joseph he was called to be the Prophet and whatnot, rather than just forgiving sins.

I do wish someone would put together a simple time line. I keep getting lost in the details.

[Anonymous]

But he did tell someone: a Methodist preacher.

Unfortunately for the hopefull (or faithfull), not one shred of evidence has come forward to SUBSTANTIATE even this claim.

What sort of evidence should the faithful expect to substantiate this claim? Why would a Methodist preacher even bother to record such a thing, since, as Bushman notes, it wasn't the strangeness of Joseph's story but its very familiarity that drew the preacher's condemnation? Subjects of revivals "often claimed to have seen visions," he reports (Bushman, RSR, 41).