An Interesting Encounter With A Young Lady.

[_Black Moclips]

Let's assume that God has nothing to do with the NDE, and that is just something that happens inside their brain as it dies (or gets really close to it). I think the interesting question is why the mind would create such an experience? Rather than confirm the persons atheism by having nothing happen, blackness, a void, whatever, the mind conjures up this crazy spiritual experience where they actually have to confront their life long beliefs and reject them (as Storm did in praying to God). That is just plain bizarre. I wonder if there are cases where a deeply religious person has an NDE so to speak, and something happens to change their believe to atheism (though a belief in the afterlife and a belief in God would have to be independent of each other).

[_Ray A]

I wonder if there are cases where a deeply religious person has an NDE so to speak, and something happens to change their believe to atheism (though a belief in the afterlife and a belief in God would have to be independent of each other).

I've never read that. What I have read is that deeply religious people very often become less "deeply religious" after an NDE. For example a religious fundamentalist almost always changes his/her unbending views and becomes more open to ideas like Universalism. They become much more tolerant and compassionate human beings.

I've also read more than a few NDEs where there's no mention of God. In fact I talked to one experiencer in 2007, and after giving all these magnificent descriptions of what he experienced, and saying he was "absolutely certain" there's an after life, I threw to $64,000 question: "Did you see God?". Answer: No.

[_marg]

I'm just reading this article by G.M Woerlee ..Darkness, Tunnels and Light in Skeptical Inquirer. The author gives a scientific explanation for the common experience of seeing light, tunnels in near death experiences. I'll have to review your article in the Lancet and compare.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

I'll be interested to hear your comments on this article.

[_gramps]

I'm just reading this article by G.M Woerlee ..Darkness, Tunnels and Light in Skeptical Inquirer. The author gives a scientific explanation for the common experience of seeing light, tunnels in near death experiences. I'll have to review your article in the Lancet and compare.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

I'll be interested to hear your comments on this article.

Thanks for that article, Marg.

I'm wondering if we give too short shrift to the drugs/medication angle? I say this only because of several personal experiences in this regard.

My first experience with this was when I went 'under the knife', so to speak, to have a wisdom tooth removed before I left on my mission. I wish I knew now just what drug they had used to knock me out. When I went under, I passed 'through the veil' into the dreary and desolate world where the billions and billions of people who had lived on this earth were standing in line to receive their reward. They weren't happy. Their reward was a joint. Satan was dispensing them one at a time. (LOL)

It was an amazing vision and I completely believed, after coming back to 'reality,' that it was a message 'from the other side.' In fact, some of what I learned there came true later during my mission. That surprised me.

I have at other times, long ago in the past, snorted a little bit of Ketamine into my nose, to see what happens then. Well, within 10-15 minutes, everything disappears, if you close your eyes, except your 'mind.' And you travel through tunnels and meet people who have been in your life at various times. It has never been quite the same each time, but I find it fascinating nevertheless.

I should state here that never, however, did I pass through a tunnel into a light. I always stay in the tunnel until the Ketamine has worn off.

I've always thought the drugs have something to do with these experiences. Certain pain relievers, in certain doses, can be 'visionary,'
at least in my experience.

[_marg]

We're getting into metaphysics here, and that's where we deal with processes or phenomena "beyond physics". There's nothing wrong with that, but it's obviously not going to be conclusive. Yes, if the NDE reports are valid, and "something" happens beyond brain death then it's not going to be an observable phenomenon - yet. Which is why I mentioned that technology is being developed to try to determine if anything does happen beyond physical death. I know it sounds like science fiction, but it will be possible in the near future.

I was asking you what you think personally, your opinion on whether there is more to NDE than just physiological phenomena. When you say "I know it sounds like science fiction, but it will be possible in the near future" you aren't being clear. What will be possible? Technology with be able discount metaphysical claims relating to NDE's or technology will be able to prove that more than just biological brain processes/imaginations are going on?

[I think it can easily be agreed upon that some people have memories after an experience in which they are told they were brain dead/unconscious. I don't think it likely can be agreed upon that their memories occurred when the brain registered clinically dead/unconscious. I fail to see how it could possibly be determined that whatever people remember occurred when they in fact were clinically brain dead.

First of all, from the study (all emphasis here on is mine):

"We included consecutive patients who were successfully resuscitated in coronary care units in ten Dutch hospitals during a research period varying between hospitals from 4 months to nearly 4 years (1988-92). The research period varied because of the requirement that all consecutive patients who had undergone successful cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) were included. If this standard was not met we ended research in that hospital. All patients had been clinically dead, which we established mainly by electrocardiogram records. All patients gave written informed consent. We obtained ethics committee approval."

That doesn't address what I was pointing out, which is that the study can not be certain that people's claimed memories were truly a function or occurred (if they occurred) when they were unconscious. I have read that study by Pim van Lommel with closer scrutiny, only once mind you. If anything what the study shows is how few people who were unconscious and resuscitated claimed to experience NDE's and of those who did the claims were not entirely consistent and even fewer experiences the core traits such as light at end of tunnel. There really were not many people who claimed NDE's in the study. And then of the few it was higher for women and higher for those younger. I believe I read 72% of the few who claimed NDE's were religious. The other thing is that the way they were questioned could have provoked a response of an NDE because they were asked whether they recollected anything while unconscious. Overall I thought the study did little to say much of anything about NDE's other than very few people percentage wise in the study said they experienced them. So the question to ask is 'why shouldn't most people experience NDE's who have undergone an unconscious state?'

Now I do think some people do experience some common things for NDE's as described and explained in the article I linked to by G.M. Woerlee.

Certainly it is easy to appreciate that people previous to an unconscious state may have mental experiences similar in some ways to one another, which they may well remember later when revived.

This is obviously one of the most popular theories. From the study:

And yet, neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy,23 with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia),24 and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots,25 or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre.4 Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor,26 and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned,27 as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD,28 psilocarpine, and mescaline.21 These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past. These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences.

Right so they know for certain physionlogical explanations account for people's claimed common experiences. As far as the notion that NDE's result in changing life-insight, & disappearance of fear of death, the fact that all the NDE were close to death might in itself be enough to change one's outlook. But I also find that to be rather subjective ..just how does one determine the degree of change in a person's outlook on life?

What you wish to believe should not skew what studies actually do reveal.

It does not. If I were convinced the cases were weak, I'd have abandoned study long ago, just like I have abandoned Book of Mormon "historicity". I'm not convinced, at this stage anyway, that near-death studies deserve to be put into the category of looking for Nephite civilisations.

But so far neither your study by Pim van Lommel, nor anything you've said, have indicated or proved in anyway that the few people who claim NDE experience anything more than physiological processes which can be explained medically/scientifically.

What I want you to do Ray is accept that people can reject quite rationally the theory that there is some otherworldly after life phenomenon going on, without you thinking they are closed minded to do so.

And what I'd like you to do, marg, is accept that people who differ with your view on this are not necessary "gullible".

Keep in mind that when I said you were gullible it was in response to you saying that your passenger's nightmares may have in fact been cured by going to church and sleeping with the Bible.

But when you say differ to my view..on just what issue are you talking about? Your passenger's story? I can accept Storm having the experience he told but I can not accept that the events he related truly happened in some twilight zone other than his mind. If anyone thinks what he described happened in another worldly twilight zone...well then yes I'd think they were gullible. Anecdotal stories are notoriously unreliable. And one is highly credulous accepting with little good critical evaluation tales of the extraordinary.

You are looking at this backwards. No one has provided any proof that death is not final. "Final death is the accepted presumption until proven otherwise.

Okay, would you like to do a survey of how many people believe in life after death? But I can already accept your rebuttal - it doesn't matter, because the majority isn't necessarily right. But let me take your argument a but further, marg. The "prove it" argument doesn't work in this case. We already have data strongly indicating the possibility of the survival of human consciousness beyond death. If you missed it, read the study.

Actually Ray I did miss it, and I read the study fairly closely. Where in the study does it say consciousness survives death?

And there are lots more I can link for you. However, if you have already pre-determined that this isn't possible, then your "prove it" approach indicates closed-mindedness. Data are there, but you choose to say, "I won't go to the data, let the data come to me". That's why scientists are proactively investigating this, because data are there. So you can bury your head in the sand, or investigate.

Well G.M. Woerlee's explanations accounts nicely for claims of dark tunnels and light commonly reported in NDE's. One really needs to consider the common claims much more intensely that the many varied ones which may be a function of cultural religious individual's experiences factored in.

This is one of these "issues" that I personally wouldn't involve myself spending much time on. For one I don't trust people's subjective anecdotal stories. You mentioned there is much variation depending upon a person's cultural background, that alone informs of the unreliability of their stories. So what is the benefit of spending lots of time reading about these experiences? Is it going to make any difference in the final analysis? Either there is an afterlife or there isn't. Whatever happens will happen irrespective of one's beliefs. Wishful thinking will make no difference.

"Wishful thinking" has nothing to do with this. I've already explained, marg, that data are available, data which challenge "accepted understandings". Why do you think Susan Blackmore spent more than 30 years studying parapsychology? Why did she not just sit back, sip on a rum-punch in a hammock and say "it's all b***s***"? Instead, she went on a quest to find answers to unsolved events backed up by solid but unexplained data.

I've done a cursory reading of Susan Blackmore's take on this and she doesn't to my knowledge say NDE's are anything more than physiological such as the explanation by Woerlee. I did read she found that NDE's typically made life changes in attitude afterwards but that in my opinion seems to be a rather wishy washy finding. It's not surprise than anyone who escapes death may indeed make some changes in attitude.

According to the study you gave, only a small minority claimed NDE, the majority experienced no such thing. As I mentioned previously "final death" is the accepted presumption until overturned by evidence. And the evidence would have to be objective that the experiences claimed did in fact occur in an unconscious clincally brain dead state, that it wasn't due to wishful thinking, implanted memories, preconscious state remembered etc.

Once again, marg, this is all covered in the study by van Lommel, van Wees, Meyers and Elfferich. Three of them have Ph.Ds, and van Lommel is an MD specialising in cardiology. Maybe you should read how van Lommel became convinced that his many patients who referred to having "strange experiences" while clinically dead prodded him to study this much more, and not to rely on his assumptions and then personal beliefs!

As I said Ray that study seemed to tell me that few people claim NDE's in that study relative to the total clinically dead. Granted I do think some people experience something, I that study did not find that the experiences were more than physiological.

The skeptical position enjoys presumption and is the rational position without objective evidence indicating otherwise.

So if I was your friend and told you your house was on fire, and you need to get there quickly, would you tell me "prove it"?

Let's put it this way. Let's say we give you presumption..so what is it that you are claiming? Are you claiming that the brain functions after death and that there is more going on that just physiological for NDE claims? If so and I give you presumption on this, my response to you is what studies do you have to support this, that there is more going on than can be explained physiologically? You say it's in the Lancet one, but I didn't see it.

[_marg]

I've always thought the drugs have something to do with these experiences. Certain pain relievers, in certain doses, can be 'visionary,'
at least in my experience.

In the study Ray linked to http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm they mention this.

"And yet, neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy,23 with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia),24 and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots,25 or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre.4 Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor,26 and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned,27 as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD,28 psilocarpine, and mescaline.21 These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past. These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences."

[_gramps]

I've always thought the drugs have something to do with these experiences. Certain pain relievers, in certain doses, can be 'visionary,'
at least in my experience.

In the study Ray linked to http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm they mention this.

"And yet, neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy,23 with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia),24 and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots,25 or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre.4 Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor,26 and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned,27 as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD,28 psilocarpine, and mescaline.21 These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past. These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences."

Thanks, that is great. I missed it before.

I do agree that the Ketamine-induced visions are indeed fragmentary in nature. And most details are completely lost after another couple of hours after coming out of the experience.

The drug they used on me for my wisdom tooth surgery must have been different. That was the full, panoramic life-review type of vision.

Thanks, again. I think this has inspired me to do a little more reading.

Any anesthesiologists that have worked with dentists in this regard, let me know. I am trying to figure out just what they might have used on me.

edited to add: I recently spoke to a nurse, who mentioned to me that they now give another drug along with these vision-producing drugs, specifically to stop that reaction. Has anyone else heard this? I can understand why, because when I came out of that experience, I was powerfully impacted by what I had thought was a message from God, Himself. No one, at that time, could have persuaded me otherwise.

[_marg]

It was an amazing vision and I completely believed, after coming back to 'reality,' that it was a message 'from the other side.' In fact, some of what I learned there came true later during my mission. That surprised me.

What did you learn in that experience that came true?

I have at other times, long ago in the past, snorted a little bit of Ketamine into my nose, to see what happens then. Well, within 10-15 minutes, everything disappears, if you close your eyes, except your 'mind.' And you travel through tunnels and meet people who have been in your life at various times. It has never been quite the same each time, but I find it fascinating nevertheless.

I believe others on here have mentioned trying/using ketamine, Good K mentioned that, in fact the "K" i believe stands for ketamine. I think I'd be afraid to try it. It sounds quite potent. Can you have bad experiences with it?

[_gramps]

marg wrote:

I believe others on here have mentioned trying/using ketamine, Good K mentioned that, in fact the "K" i believe stands for ketamine. I think I'd be afraid to try it. It sounds quite potent. Can you have bad experiences with it?

Hi. It is always good to research about anything you might want to ingest, in whatever form. Remember, and I am sure you already know this: Set (mental expectations, etc.) and Setting (physical surroundings, such as who you are with and where you are) is everything when you ingest something. I have never had a problem experimenting unless I violated one or both of those two simple (not really so simple) commandments.

As long as you get the dosage right, there will be no problem. Can you imagine a line of coke sitting there on a mirror?

About that amount. It needn't be exact, at all.

There are at least 3 methods to take it. If in liquid form, you can mainline it or you can inject it into your buttocks, or somewhere that would work similarly. I've never gone either of those routes. In powder form, you snort it. All dentists have it sitting in their office, in liquid form. You just put it in the oven to convert it to powder.

I have seen people become nauseous, especially the first time. But, if you take into account body weight and realize that a smaller person wouldn't need the same as a bigger person, then you can control this.

I hope that helps. The Erowid Vault can help you with more information. I don't mean its chat forums. Those are nonsense, as a general rule.

Best situation I found for me, when I tried it: Some really good chill music; not much vocals. If you were at a rave, or something similar, and you wanted to chill out in the chill tent, imagine the music you would be listening to. Like that.

At home, with a guide (someone who has done it before), and other close friends, if desired. A dark room, maybe some candles, and some chill music. Lay down on a couch or a nice relaxing recliner. It is completely finished within an hour. The whole experience isn't much more than 20 to 30 minutes, maximum. You can do it repeatedly, though it loses its specialness. Everyone has said the first time was the best, but I imagine that is because of the shock and surprise of the first-time experience.

I have had one friend who wasn't sure where he was as his body disappeared. But, I had already warned him of that 'problem' and told him just to call out and ask me if I was there, or to open his eyes and confirm. Then, he was ok after that.

You won't die from an overdose, in the worst scenario. I've tried it probably 20-30 times. I think I am still ok.

Salvia divinorum is still legal in most places, and I find that much more dangerous, though really fascinating. You must have a guide with you for that experience.

I should state here as well that I never tried this where it was illegal, though, I do believe now, it would be hard to find a place where it remains legal. I don't know about Canada.

[_antishock8]

There's no doubt people have hallucinations. A hallucination is in no way proof of an afterlife. If our brains produce biochemicals as a means to interpret or react to stimuli, wouldn't it make sense that under duress brains produce biochemicals to innoculate itself against a traumatic experience like the cessation of one's life support system, ie, body? We are our brain. Our brain is who we are. This mass of nerves and biochemicals is, in sum total, our soul, our reality, our consciousness.

Do I think people have NDE's inside their own brains? Yeah. Sure. It's their brain doping itself up on the verge of death.

Do I think people hallucinate? Sure. Have visions? Yep. Sometimes they need drugs to do it, and sometimes their brains are misfiring and under/over producing chemicals that causes itself to interpret its surrounding in a non-normal manner.

Do I belive there is an invisible Kingdom where loved ones watch you all the time, and wait to meet you as you traverse a tunnel into this new realm? No. Why? Because there's no evidence that these experiences aren't produced anywhere but inside one's helmet. Mass pyschosis is normal. Mass hysteria is normal. People pass ideas to another where those ideas incubate, and then transform into a hallucination at any given time. Angels, demons, aliens, deceased loved ones, ghosts, etc... These are all ideas that reside in a memory bank in our noggin, and when our noggin self-medicates near death it's not unreasonable for some of these ideas to surface. And, I would venture to guess that more often than not a lot of brains simply don't self-medicate, and many people die in a horrific amount of pain and duress until the nerve center ceases to operate. That's kinda sad. So, I can see why NDE's are attractive to some people. It's comforting.