Prop 8, $$ and the LDS Church video

[_John Larsen]

It's very un-American for the political side opposing my views to be better organized and more effective than my side.

I think it should be illegal.

Don't worry, you'll get your wish once Jesus returns to Earth and puts the Mormons in charge of everything.

Not all Mormons--just the priesthood. You got to have the right parts.

[_Gazelam]

A gay Bishop is going to offer the prayer at Obamas inauguration?

Damn.....

I don't even have the words....

[_Seven]

"rcrocket"]

Let me submit that you don't listen to the radio at all. Let me further submit that you don't watch prime time TV.

You would be wrong on both. :) I listen to the radio everyday and alternate between music and conservative talk radio. I also watch CNN and have some favorite prime time shows I watch regularly. During the campaigns I always become a political junkie and had the television on more than normal.

No there wasn't. Give me your best example from broadcast media. They are all on-line on youtube.

Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l61Pd5_j ... deo/view/8



They were asked to pull this ad down by parents of the children on that field trip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1wM7xb6f1I

[_rcrocket]

Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l61Pd5_j ... deo/view/8

This one I know well. Where is the lie?

[_Ray A]

A gay Bishop is going to offer the prayer at Obamas inauguration?

Damn.....

I don't even have the words....

The Nehor might be able to help you out there.

[_rcrocket]

Seven: Aren't you going to respond? You cite the two videos as evidence of a lie the coalition made; I am very familiar with the first. Where's the lie?

You're not one of those persons, are you, who throw around words like "lie" and "deceive" without evidence, are you?

[_Seven]

Seven: Aren't you going to respond? You cite the two videos as evidence of a lie the coalition made; I am very familiar with the first. Where's the lie?

You're not one of those persons, are you, who throw around words like "lie" and "deceive" without evidence, are you?

Please have a little patience with me. :) I am very busy in real life with my kids and don't get a lot of time here.

I don't recall ever saying anyone "lied" and I went through my posts and could not find where you get this. Can you please explain your comment to me?

All I have done on this thread is given you my experience during the campaign, that the "Yes" side was much more organized and efficient while the "no" side seemed to be asleep until the end. Why do you disagree with that? We had two different experiences. You live in a liberal county and I live in a more conservative area so our experiences are going to be different.

The only thing I said critical of the "yes" side was that there was "fear-mongering" in some of their ads, e-mails, etc. That video was an example of it. The first time I saw that ad, I was led to believe these kids were taken on some field trip to teach them about gay marriage. The ominous music in the background, focusing several times on that little girl (who was exploited), leading people to believe this will be forced upon their children.........I had so many people sending me e-mails about that ad who had no idea the context of the field trip.

It would have helped to get the full story....that it was their own teacher and that parents and children were there to support her. They flashed a newspaper that showed the headline of "teacher" but it was too fast to even read it. I'm not saying I agree that children should have been taken there, but if gay people are able to marry, nobody is forced to send their kids on field trips to witness these weddings.

[_rcrocket]

Just as I thought.

The ad was accurate in every respect. Had not the Supreme Court ruled the way it did, there would have been no field trip to see a gay marriage. Prop 8 reversed that.

That field trip was a stupid thing to do, as anti-Prop 8 advocates admit.

I assure you that the anti-Prop 8 side was as well organized as the Prop 8 side. The anti-Prop 8 spent their money in different ways, raised it in different ways, and was more effective in money raising. Despite your claim that you never saw an anti-Prop 8 ad, there were more of them in the last three weeks. They spent more of their money on radio ads directed to young voters -- hip hop and rock and roll stations. In the last week they directed more efforts to black voters, had a very effective black television campaign.

The anti-Prop 8 campaign decided to concentrate their efforts in media work rather than door to door grassroots campaigning. They ran a traditional campaign. It is nuts to say they weren't organized; they were well organized. They had some of the smartest people on the planet running the campaign.

In the broadcast media, there was no "fear mongering" on the pro side. You are just repeating the mantra of the anti-Prop 8 side. The ads were accurate. I can't say the same thing for emails and board posts.

The anti-Prop 8 side, however, had some really nasty campaign ads, such as the one with the fake Mormon missionaries. Their ads outright lied about the education code.

You are just way, way off in your observations about frequency of ads. I was involved in the campaign and know some of the details.

[_hobart]

Blaming someone for having more ads for one side or spending more money on their campaign makes it sound like people have no minds of their own--that they'll vote whatever way they see more yard signs for. Unfortunately, that isn't too far off. Studies have shown that people tend to vote for whomever/whatever they have seen more of in media.

And that brings us to the unfortunate reality. I think we should stop blaming the church for spending whatever amount of money they (or their members) spent and get to the real problem. I have the horrible worry that most if not many people who voted really didn't have that much of a stake in it at all--and so popular democracy and opinions are allowed to screw venerable minorities from getting full protection or consideration.

I have heard people complain that anti-prop 8ers are "throwing temper tantrums" like little children because they "didn't get their way." But let's think about this: wouldn't the other side complain too? Yes, but I don't think they'd complain very long. After all, how often (and please think seriously and slowly about this one) does your average Mormon actually get affected in any way with homosexuality? Not very often if at all.

While I think the consent to be governed is very important, pure democracy is a terribly scary thing. Thank goodness we don't live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic. The fact of the matter is this isn't something that should have been put up for popular vote.

“Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough; there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development and, if possible, prevent the formation of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own” (From J. S. Mill, On Liberty, 1859).

[Anonymous]

"rcrocket"

That field trip was a stupid thing to do, as anti-Prop 8 advocates admit.

I completely agree with you. But having the context of the field trip dramatically changed how I viewed the first ad.

I assure you that the anti-Prop 8 side was as well organized as the Prop 8 side. The anti-Prop 8 spent their money in different ways, raised it in different ways, and was more effective in money raising.

One of the Mormon church's best qualities (in my opinion it's brilliant how they have it set up), is how organized and efficient things run. I have a hard time imagining another group outdoing the Mormons on this but I'll have to take your word for it. I don't live in LA and did not see it firsthand. All I saw in my area was the "yes" side doing the hard work.
Right before the election I finally saw my first "no" supporters standing on a street corner next to some "yes" people. So wherever this amazing network and organization of "no" volunteers were, they didn't come in my area.

Despite your claim that you never saw an anti-Prop 8 ad, there were more of them in the last three weeks.

(bolding mine)

I never said that. I personally recall seeing one (the confusing one) and the Mormon missionary one which I only saw from this board so it doesn't count.

It is nuts to say they weren't organized;

I was praising the church for it's incredible organization and grass roots work. I stated that I felt it was superior to the "no" side. Not the same thing.

They had some of the smartest people on the planet running the campaign.

I don't doubt that, but these "smartest people" ran some stupid ads and did not effectively give a message that people could understand.

The anti-Prop 8 side, however, had some really nasty campaign ads, such as the one with the fake Mormon missionaries.

I already stated that I thought the Mormon missionary ad was in very poor taste and childish

You are just way, way off in your observations about frequency of ads. I was involved in the campaign and know some of the details.

Is it possible they chose not to run all these ads you saw in LA in more conservative areas like mine figuring it was lost money? Just curious since you worked in the campaign and know how they ran things.


My observations may be off but I can only tell you what I experienced in my area of California.