''The Foundation for Indigenous Research and Mormonism''

[_Ray A]

Here's more:

This is an incredible vacation. Meet new friends as you sail to Mexico, Belize, and Grand Cayman at an unbelievable price! Carnival's Legend, has everything from food to entertainment as you sail the Western Caribbean. LDS.Travel offers optional guided tours exploring ancient ruins and other incredible sites. Enjoy onboard lectures from your expert tour guide. Have fun and learn all at a great price!

[_Ray A]

And another:

BELIZE CITY - Altun Ha Ruins Required - $145.00
Archeologists believe Rockstone Pond, the literal translation for Altun Ha, was first settled somewhere around 250 BC, with construction of the buildings beginning in 100 AD and continuing throughout the Classic period that ended in the 10th century. Some 10,000 Maya lived in and around Altun Ha, which was a significant trading center as evidenced by the large amounts of jade and obsidian excavated here in the early sixties and seventies. Spanning a 25 square mile area and roughly an hour from Belize City, Altun Ha is made up of two central plazas surrounded by towering temples that enclose the palm-strewn land. We will travel by bus to this sight. A light lunch is included; however you may want to bring a snack. The tour lasts approximately 5 hours.

[_cinepro]

Yes Ray, but none of those descriptions are actually tying in those sites to the Book of Mormon.

The only mention is that they will do studies at sea, which means they could even be studying North American settings as they steam towards Central America.

[_Ray A]

Yes Ray, but none of those descriptions are actually tying in those sites to the Book of Mormon.

The only mention is that they will do studies at sea, which means they could even be studying North American settings as they steam towards Central America.

I factored that in, but for what it's worth here's another:

This 17-day cruise through the beautiful Caribbean ocean is packed with fun, learning and adventure. On board you can enjoy the on-board spa, excellent food or just relax on deck and watch the world float by. You will be able to do in-depth studies of the Book of Mormon as possible locations and events are discussed during studies at sea. When the ship goes ashore our expert hosts will show you the magnificent ruins at Altun Ha, Belize while discussing parallels to ancient civilizations. This is just one of close to ten stops! And best of all the price is right! You can afford to take the whole family for this amazing price. A Deposit of only $500 per person will guarantee your cabin rate!

One of the best things about this cruise that keeps our guests coming back again and again is the knowledge and insights from our full-time hosts.

Isn't it kind of weird to be discussing a North American setting for the Book of Mormon while cruising the Caribbean?

[_Ray A]

The only mention is that they will do studies at sea, which means they could even be studying North American settings as they steam towards Central America.

This is partly why I asked to be enlightened. Does Meldrum think that any of the Book of Mormon occurred in Mesoamerica? I need to brush up on this.

[_Ray A]

This came up over at MADB:

Promised Land Seminars

I might just go to the one in Los Angeles just to check it out.

As I said in that thread, I suspect they will have great success with people who want to go on a Book of Mormon tour but don't have a passport.

(On a personal note, that was the thread that got me banned, and I never did learn why LDS scholars would be embarrassed for doing mainstream research.)

by the way, cinepro, do let me know the result of your emailing, which got you banned:

Most of those websites don't have search functions, so I had to email them directly.

I asked if they were familiar with any scholarly study of the Book of Mormon peoples (specifically the Jaredites, Nephites, or Lamanites), or of the Book of Abraham which was translated from the papyrus that came into the possession of Joseph Smith in the 1830's.

I asked for references to any scholarship that they would consider "mainstream" that discusses these books in a positive manner, and supports their claims to historicity. I asked if they knew of any scholarship that supports the contention that there were cultures in the Americas between 600BC and 400AD that kept the Law of Moses, and believed in Jesus Christ, or that Abraham of the Bible lived in Egypt as a youth, and left writings that were later recovered.

I'll let you know if I get any responses, and if I have permission, I'll share them in this thread.

[_Tom]

Add the FIRM Foundation to the list:

Ancient America Foundation (AAF)
Book of Mormon Archaeological Foundation
Book of Mormon Archaeology Forum (BMAF)
Book of Mormon Foundation
Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS)
Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR)
Foundation for Indigenous Research and Mormonism (FIRM Foundation)
Nephi Project
Research Applications in Mormon Archeology & History (RAMAH)
Scholarly & Historical Information Exchange for Latter-Day Saints (SHIELDS)
Zarahemla Research Foundation

Holy cow, I didn't realize there were that many.

I suppose that most of them consist of a single website with maybe an article or two, right? Other than FARMS and FAIR, do any of them compare with FIRM on the basis of organization, seminars, tours, resources, available products, etc.?

Other than FARMS, FAIR, and FIRM, I would say that the three most active organizations are the following:

Joseph Allen's Book of Mormon Tours/Book of Mormon Archaeological Foundation: tours, books, kitsch

BMAF: tours, conferences, books, videos

Nephi Project: books, videos

[_Daniel Peterson]

At Shades's request -- both because I like Shades and because I still owe him a book (which I've not forgotten, but which continues to cause me enormous embarrassment) -- I'm briefly commenting on this thread.

Seems to me that the "FIRM" acronym is clearly a dig at FARMS, FAIR, and SHIELDS. FARMS may have thrown the first punch, but Mr. Meldrum intends to throw the last.

I'm not sure that it's a dig -- though it may be -- but it's plainly a reference. The unfortunate acronym FARMS gave rise to FAIR and SHIELDS and, now, to FIRM. It was a trend that, I had hoped, was running out of gas.

It's pretty plain that Rod Meldrum sees himself as countering FARMS and/or the Maxwell Institute. I'm not sure what "punch" FARMS has "thrown."

Some people here seem to be eager for a mudwrestling match between the Maxwell Institute and Rod Meldrum. I want to assure them that nobody at the Maxwell Institute is in a panic, or concerned about "market share," or, even, paying a whole lot of attention to this. We're aware of it, but it's not a topic of even brief weekly conversation. We've got lots of interesting things going on.

[_Ray A]

Meldrum doesn't accept Mesoamerica as a setting for the Book of Mormon. From FAQ (all emphasis added):

The simple fact is that no DNA findings support the dominant theory of the geography of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. Since there is no DNA evidence supporting the claims of the Book of Mormon there, those who believe in this geography must explain why there is no evidence of European lineages there.

Nowhere does Joseph state that the Book of Mormon history occurred in Central America.

This is supported by the text of the Book of Mormon, along with the Doctrine and Covenants, both considered holy cannon of the church. The Book of Mormon occured on the Promised Land according to it's record, making the United States of America the principle location of it's geography.

Louis Midgley's account of a one or two hour phone conversation with Meldrum, posted on the FAIR Blog:

He had worked in sales. Then he founded company that produced freeze dried food that was sold widely just before the year 2000. He had made a lot of money, and had a huge factory. Then when the bug did not being the nation down, his sales ceased and he lost everything in a fire sale.

But now, after reading in the [news]papers about the claim that DNA disproves the Book of Mormon, he has the theory that he can prove the Book of Mormon true with DNA. He has in mind a marker [X] that seems to be European, which is also found in the Levant [a.k.a. eastern Mediterranian]. This DNA [marker] is also found in America right where the Lehi colony, including both the Nephites and Lamanites lived.

When I asked him if he was familiar with the work done by the Maxwell Institute, he had no idea what that was. So I made reference to FARMS. Well, he said he had read some of that literature. He could recall having read a book by John Sorenson, but could not recall its name. I asked if he had heard about John Clark or Brant Gardner [and others]. He had not heard of them. I asked him if he was familiar with the LDS DNA experts who have published in the FARMS Review. He had not. He was not familiar with the FARMS Review.

I asked him why he had not bothered to become familiar with the best current scholarship on the very issues he was now addressing. He told me that he wanted to give the evidence a fresh look and not be corrupted by previous speculation.

I asked him if he had tried to construct an internal map of Book of Mormon geography from the host of clues in the book itself. He had no idea what I was talking about. So I explained what John Clark had done 19 years earlier [in the first issue of what is now called the FARMS Review]. He said that he had fashioned his Book of Mormon geography from the statements of Joseph Smith and the prophets. And then fit the DNA evidence to what had been revealed to prophets. And Elder Rector had given his work his blessing.

Meldrum explained that he was working with Wayne May and Ancient American Magazine. May, he said, had access to wonderful artifacts that are clearly the work of the Lehi colony. Exactly like May, Meldrum places the entire history of the Lehi colony that is recorded in the Book of Mormon in Western New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois and Missouri. He had then come around Africa from Arabia and up though the South Atlantic and land perhaps in Florida and then migrate immediately north.

[_KimberlyAnn]

The Maxwell Institute's big budget SHIELDS FAIR FARMS from FIRM.

Meldrum needs to hire a fundraiser.

KA