The lost 116 pages

[_Scottie]

I posted this at MAD, and I'd like to get your ideas as well.

To summarize D&C 10, the Lord forewarned Joseph that evil men would change the 116 pages.

In what way could these evil men change the 116 pages? They would have to forge Martin's handwriting, right? How easily was this accomplished in the early 1800's?

Are there other ways they could have changed the originals?



.

[_moksha]

Wasn't that claim mostly to provide plausible deniability in case the first manuscript came to light and followers wondered why it was different than the newer manuscript?

[_The Nehor]

Publish the altered pages and lose the original.

[_cinepro]

The 116 pages is one of the most preposterous stories in Church history.

In addition to the issue you raise, we should also consider the grander problem, which is this:

Lucy Harris's "plan", as described by Joseph, made no sense.

Lucy's motive was to stop Martin from giving Joseph money. But the plan described by Joseph (wait for Book of Mormon to be published, then produce altered docs to imply the "translation" wasn't real), has a few problems.

First, the plan would require Joseph to continue using Martin's money to translate and finish the book. Without the pages, he would have to start over. So she just guaranteed that Martin would be spending even more time and money on the project.

Then, the only hope she would have for them to recover their money would be to sell the books once they are published. But Joseph described her plan as waiting until the book was published, then acting to discredit it. So after all the time and money is spent, she steps in at the point that she best stands to get her money back.

Lucy Harris was the 19th century equivalent of a wife who is really mad that her husband is playing video games instead of putting the kids to bed. Women in that situation don't formulate complicated and long-range plans to solve the problem. They pull the plug on the PS3 and tell their husband to get back in the saddle. Lucy most likely destroyed the pages, hoping it would put an end to the project (which it did temporarily), and stop Martin from committing more money and time to the endeavor.

It's also interesting that Lucy's so-called "plan" hinged on one fundamental assumption: a tight translation process. If the plan was really enacted, it would have been a simple process for Joseph to tell the truth and explain that translation (even divine translation) is an imprecise process, and there would be natural variations among translations of the same document done at different times, especially as his skills as a translator improved.

[_Inconceivable]

The 116 pages is one of the most preposterous stories in Church history.

It's also interesting that Lucy's so-called "plan" hinged on one fundamental assumption: a tight translation process. If the plan was really enacted, it would have been a simple process for Joseph to tell the truth and explain that translation (even divine translation) is an imprecise process, and there would be natural variations among translations of the same document done at different times, especially as his skills as a translator improved.

Ironically, this same lame excuse was worked into virtually everything else that bore scrutiny. So why not the 116 pages?

Undeniably good points, cinepro.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

To summarize D&C 10, the Lord forewarned Joseph that evil men would change the 116 pages.

In what way could these evil men change the 116 pages? They would have to forge Martin's handwriting, right? How easily was this accomplished in the early 1800's?

Are there other ways they could have changed the originals?

A point of trivia: it is believed Mark Hoffman was working on forging the lost 116 pages when he was arrested (based on evidence found in his home). I wonder how much GBH would have been willing to pay to buy those docs from Hoffman and lock them in the FP vault (like he did with the Salamander Letter).

[_John Larsen]

The 116 pages is one of the most preposterous stories in Church history.

In addition to the issue you raise, we should also consider the grander problem, which is this:

Lucy Harris's "plan", as described by Joseph, made no sense.

Lucy's motive was to stop Martin from giving Joseph money. But the plan described by Joseph (wait for Book of Mormon to be published, then produce altered docs to imply the "translation" wasn't real), has a few problems.

First, the plan would require Joseph to continue using Martin's money to translate and finish the book. Without the pages, he would have to start over. So she just guaranteed that Martin would be spending even more time and money on the project.

Then, the only hope she would have for them to recover their money would be to sell the books once they are published. But Joseph described her plan as waiting until the book was published, then acting to discredit it. So after all the time and money is spent, she steps in at the point that she best stands to get her money back.

Lucy Harris was the 19th century equivalent of a wife who is really mad that her husband is playing video games instead of putting the kids to bed. Women in that situation don't formulate complicated and long-range plans to solve the problem. They pull the plug on the PS3 and tell their husband to get back in the saddle. Lucy most likely destroyed the pages, hoping it would put an end to the project (which it did temporarily), and stop Martin from committing more money and time to the endeavor.

It's also interesting that Lucy's so-called "plan" hinged on one fundamental assumption: a tight translation process. If the plan was really enacted, it would have been a simple process for Joseph to tell the truth and explain that translation (even divine translation) is an imprecise process, and there would be natural variations among translations of the same document done at different times, especially as his skills as a translator improved.

Well said.

[_Scottie]

Awesome post, Cinepro!!

As a chapel Mormon, the plan of evil men making changes to the pages made perfect sense to me!

Now, as I look at it from an outsiders point of view, I see it a bit differently.

If I were a con man that was making up a story the pages I had just made up were taken, the most logical action would be to claim God told me not to re-translate. It makes PERFECT sense in a con-man scenario.

I also don't believe Joseph Smith was a big enough threat at this time for "evil men" to go to the time and effort to forge an entire page (at least) in order to discredit Joseph Smith.

[_cinepro]

Awesome post, Cinepro!!

Thanks. As I said, the weirdest thing about the whole story is that if you think about it for just a little bit, the LDS version makes absolutely no sense.

It's very funny that South Park chose that obscure tidbit from LDS history to drill-in on.

If you read the details of the story, imagine two different scenarios:

1. Joseph was being directed by an omniscent, omnipotent God.

or

2. Joseph was "making it up" as he went, and was limited in knowledge to what he could figure out himself. God was not a factor int he equation.

Heck, it's weird that God gave Joseph permission (after all the "begging") for Martin to take the pages, then punishes Joseph for stuff that happened outside of his control. If God didn't want the pages to get lost, He should have never given Joseph permission in the first place.

[_The Nehor]

The 116 pages is one of the most preposterous stories in Church history.

In addition to the issue you raise, we should also consider the grander problem, which is this:

Lucy Harris's "plan", as described by Joseph, made no sense.

Lucy's motive was to stop Martin from giving Joseph money. But the plan described by Joseph (wait for Book of Mormon to be published, then produce altered docs to imply the "translation" wasn't real), has a few problems.

First, the plan would require Joseph to continue using Martin's money to translate and finish the book. Without the pages, he would have to start over. So she just guaranteed that Martin would be spending even more time and money on the project.

Then, the only hope she would have for them to recover their money would be to sell the books once they are published. But Joseph described her plan as waiting until the book was published, then acting to discredit it. So after all the time and money is spent, she steps in at the point that she best stands to get her money back.

Lucy Harris was the 19th century equivalent of a wife who is really mad that her husband is playing video games instead of putting the kids to bed. Women in that situation don't formulate complicated and long-range plans to solve the problem. They pull the plug on the PS3 and tell their husband to get back in the saddle. Lucy most likely destroyed the pages, hoping it would put an end to the project (which it did temporarily), and stop Martin from committing more money and time to the endeavor.

It's also interesting that Lucy's so-called "plan" hinged on one fundamental assumption: a tight translation process. If the plan was really enacted, it would have been a simple process for Joseph to tell the truth and explain that translation (even divine translation) is an imprecise process, and there would be natural variations among translations of the same document done at different times, especially as his skills as a translator improved.

This assumes Lucy stole them and if she did that she acted alone, neither of which are known.