The lost 116 pages

[_AlmaBound]

Didn't Grandin or another local publisher start printing excerpts from the Book of Mormon before its release, and Joseph simply told them to stop based on his ownership of the copyright?

Yes, there were 24 manuscript pages at first, and while UD probably has a lot more information and will hopefully fill us in, I've often wondered if there were some sort of correlation between those 24 manuscript pages and the 24 plates.

Of course, looking for these correlations has become somewhat of an odd hobby of mine, so it may not mean a thing. I just think it is interesting.

[_Uncle Dale]

Didn't Grandin or another local publisher start printing excerpts from the Book of Mormon...

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY ... htm#010230

And -- thanks to the colored pictures in the Illustrated Stories from Church History series
of volumes, we know exactly what those evil men were like.

1. They wore ratty-looking black hats
2. They went ten days between shaves
3. They had mean-looking faces
4. They chewed tobacco
5. They drank whiskey

In fact -- just take the "heavies" out of any Gene Autry movie, and you'll have these "evil men."

Now -- why did they make no use of the forged "Book of Lehi?"

Again, look to any Roy Rogers movie -- these evil men work in gangs that fall apart as soon
as Roy captures the leader...

Or Hopalong Cassidy ropes a few of the bad guys...

Or the Lone Ranger shoots the guns out of their hands...

Or The Shadow clouds their minds (or their sorcerers' crystal balls)....

Case closed -- stay tuned for the next exciting episode: "Sky King collides with Moroni!"

UD

[_AlmaBound]

Scottie, if you don't mind good sir, I am interested to know what your impressions are as to the differences in responses between here and the other board you mentioned on which you submitted this topic.

[_Scottie]

Scottie, if you don't mind good sir, I am interested to know what your impressions are as to the differences in responses between here and the other board you mentioned on which you submitted this topic.

Pretty much what I'd expect the different responses would be.

The apologetic spin is not very convincing.

It's really a shame Cinepro is banned from MAD. His response is by far the most logical I've seen on either board! I'd copy his response, but I might get banned.

[Guest]

It's really a shame Cinepro is banned from MAD. His response is by far the most logical I've seen on either board! I'd copy his response, but I might get banned.

It wouldn't be the first time they've heard it.

Or even the second time.

Or the third.

fourth...

or fifth...?

[_cinepro]

Allow me to quote myself:

It's possible that when Joseph found out Martin lost the pages, he freaked out because he really believed that there were men who would "expose" him. Or he really believed that God was mad.

Either way, it's possible that Joseph decided the only way to continue would be to keep going from where he had left off, somewhere in Mosiah. Then, by the time he got back to 1 Nephi, he was ready to retell the story from a different angle, with the explanation about the different set of plates as "cover" in case the other translation surfaced. Then, by the time he finished 2 Nephi, he realized he had a huge gap between the end of 2 Nephi, and the start of the translation in Mosiah, so he "bridged" it by having Mormon miraculously summarize the story, even to the point of leaving off exactly at the point where the the resumed translation in Mosiah began.

Sadly, all of this could have been averted had Mormon, God and Joseph been familiar with the "loose" translation theory. Had this been so, the threat of having a "different" translation would have been nullified, because Joseph could have simply explained that he wasn't doing a word-for-word "tight" translation, but instead was using his own understanding, vocabulary, and culture in forming the scripture. This being the case, there also wouldn't have been any danger of the theives altering the text, because the new text would be different anyway. All of this could have been done without invoking the miracle of the extra set of plates, the miracle of Mormon summing up the story, and the miracle of God knowing exactly where Joseph would be in the translation when Martin would lose the manuscript.

And since apologists are free to bounce back and forth between the "loose" and "tight" theories as needed, Joseph could have done the same if he wanted to.

And, as we've seen over the last 175 years, all of this would make perfect sense to believers anyway, with little collateral damage among potential converts.



The final score:

Likelyhood of Lucy Harris destroying the pages: High
Likelyhood of others being involved with a plan to alter and publish the pages: Low
Likelyhood of the pages ever being recovered: Low
Likelyhood of any ancient scripture ever being divinely translated now that Joseph Smith is dead (sealed portion, Book of Joseph, completed Bible translation): Low

[_AlmaBound]

Either way, it's possible that Joseph decided the only way to continue would be to keep going from where he had left off, somewhere in Mosiah. Then, by the time he got back to 1 Nephi, he was ready to retell the story from a different angle,

This is pretty much what I think happened, though I think he sort of "hijacked" the story that had been originally been presented to him by Rigdon.

I think the shock at the loss of the 116 pages was pretended, and allowed Joseph to insert his own story along with the altered theology Rigdon had discovered.

In other words, I think Smith saw an opportunity to take over the reigns from Rigdon at this point - Rigdon intended to present a change in the story, reflecting his new theological views, and provided these changes to Smith, who then saw the opportunity to insert himself into the pages.

[_Uncle Dale]

Either way, it's possible that Joseph decided the only way to continue would be to keep going from where he had left off, somewhere in Mosiah. Then, by the time he got back to 1 Nephi, he was ready to retell the story from a different angle,

This is pretty much what I think happened, though I think he sort of "hijacked" the story that had been originally been presented to him by Rigdon.

I think the shock at the loss of the 116 pages was pretended, and allowed Joseph to insert his own story along with the altered theology Rigdon had discovered.

In other words, I think Smith saw an opportunity to take over the reigns from Rigdon at this point - Rigdon intended to present a change in the story, reflecting his new theological views, and provided these changes to Smith, who then saw the opportunity to insert himself into the pages.

We need a chronology of these events:

1. When did Mother Smith's "stranger" and Joseph first realize the pages were unrecoverable?

2. When did "the angel" take "the plates" away from Joseph?

3. What was Joseph doing, during the period when he had no "plates?"

4. When did Joseph (and Cowdery?) resume translating/writing?

5. Where was Sidney Rigdon, between the time the pages were found to be unrecoverable
and the time when "the plates" were returned to Joseph?

UD

[_AlmaBound]

1. When did Mother Smith's "stranger" and Joseph first realize the pages were unrecoverable?

You're going to have to fill me in on some details here, though I will say that I think Mother Smith was in on it, so anything she may have said, to me, is read from that point of view.

2. When did "the angel" take "the plates" away from Joseph?

I think Rigdon took away the rest of the manuscript he had been working on, to include the Book of Moses, at around the time of this usurpation of Joseph.

3. What was Joseph doing, during the period when he had no "plates?"

Compiling his own recollections to be included in the final project.

4. When did Joseph (and Cowdery?) resume translating/writing?

I'm not sure. What is the accepted timeline for translation? i think there was a period where things got sorted out and an agreement was made between the parties.

5. Where was Sidney Rigdon, between the time the pages were found to be unrecoverable and the time when "the plates" were returned to Joseph?

I don't know - but one thing is for sure, in my mind, some agreement was reached. I think that agreement is explained in the "exchange of prisoners" between Ammoron and Moroni.

[_Scottie]

I still have the question of Josephs perceived importance at this point in Mormon history.

Were "evil men" really so invested in bringing down Joseph that they would go to such extreme measures and great expense to do it? I have a hard time believing that Joseph was such a threat that anybody would take him seriously, let alone a throng of evil men looking for any opportunity to prove him wrong.

It seems to me that the people of the area at that time saw him as a minor crackpot who was doing something with a gold Bible. To hear Mormons tell it, evil men were everywhere looking for any chance, no matter how illegal or immoral, to bring the church down.