Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

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_John Larsen
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _John Larsen »

Daniel Peterson wrote:To me, if you once grant the possibility of rocks playing a role in a revelation or translation, whether the rocks are set in a bow or placed in the bottom of a hat (presumably a fool's method of excluding ambient light) doesn't seem to matter much.

If you deny the possibility, neither method makes any sense.

Amen brother.
_Pokatator
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Pokatator »

BC

Did you teach from the manual? In other words, was the stone in the hat story that you presented word for word from the manual? Or was the story not even there and you added it?

If not you broke a rule. I have been and many others have been raked over the coals for not teaching to the manual.

Pok
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_solomarineris
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _solomarineris »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I've been speaking and teaching and writing about the seer stone and the hat for many years now.

And I also push Royal Skousen's Book of Mormon Critical Text Project wherever and whenever I can. I think it's one of the great monuments of Latter-day Saint scholarship.


You do, eh?
Look what you wrote here;
http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=582
With Dr. Parr, I too am struck by Simon Southerton's effective concession of the fundamental point made by writers for FARMS on the subject of Amerindian DNA and the Book of Mormon over the past few years, and I think it bears repeating: "In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites, say less than thirty, entered such a massive native population, it would be very hard to detect their genes today."77
Well, you may not be willing to admit altering Church history, your pamphlets bear witness to the contrary what you are saying;
Read this, and read it few times if you like, it comes from a pamhplet, published 1n 1982, written possibly in 1980, I have it in mint condition;
Title, "What is the Book of Mormon"
"This migration was successful, and a great civilization was established in Americas.It lasted for nearly 2 thousand years until it was destroyed by internal conflicts that ended in brutal and total war".
"Lehi's people and Mulek's people eventually merged and became one nation, the ancestors of American Indians.

I also have "Christ in America",
that one one is filled even with more childish, ridiculous claims of "White Bearded God" who appeared to Americans.
Wait this is not all, in 1976 when I was in Switzerland I captured a picture of my roommate he was pointing a Poster, you know what it said?
"Are the American Indians of the House of Israel", the Indian in the poster wore an unmistakably recognizable traditional Warbonnet.

I don't feel sorry for you, knowingly to be accessory to these fallacies. You know the "doublespeak" and yet you help to perpetuate it.
I hand it to you; somebody's gotta do it, who'se better than you?
_Phaedrus Ut
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

Daniel Peterson wrote:To me, if you once grant the possibility of rocks playing a role in a revelation or translation, whether the rocks are set in a bow or placed in the bottom of a hat (presumably a fool's method of excluding ambient light) doesn't seem to matter much.

If you deny the possibility, neither method makes any sense.

I'm with Dan on this one. If you believed that one set of magic rocks helped Joseph translate it shouldn't be a giant leap of faith to include another kind of magic rock.


Phaedrus
_JoetheClerk
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _JoetheClerk »

A lie is a lie. A Deception.

Or, from the Movie Main Street, it is 'a gift for fiction'.

The further one gets from what Joseph Smith wrote and taught the more one accepts these fictions that make anything believable, from Kinderhook plates to white salamanders defended by 'Apostles' to the idea that marrying 14 year olds, taking the inheritance money from 'foster daughters' and marrying them to 'little tricks of history' that are the 'great secret' translated currently into 'I don't know that we believe that'.

yep, 'a gift for fiction'. That way nothing is ever a lie and everything can be explained away.
_Scottie
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Scottie »

BC, I'm glad to hear you taught this! Kudos!
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Who Knows
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Who Knows »

Did you also teach them that the 'seer-stone in a hat' gig was the same one he used to 'find' buried treasure in his pre-BOM days? That's the real kicker...
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_cinepro
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _cinepro »

bcspace wrote:
Why should I expect such when the notion is freely available in an issue of the Ensign?


I think it's tempting to overstate the value of something being "freely available" in the Ensign.

The Church has a systematic process in place for teaching the members history and doctrine. This is done through the Sunday School and Priesthood lessons, as well as the Seminary and Institute classes.

While it is true that the Ensign did publish Elder Nelson's talk (originally given to Mission Presidents), keep in mind the following:

- The CES manual for college-age LDS students makes not a single mention of a "seer stone". The only device mentioned in conjunction with the translation is the U&T (which the book claims was returned along with the plates after the loss of the 116 pages).

-The CES manual uses the following image as an illustration of the translation process:

Image

- The same manual claims the following:

Little is known about the actual process of translating the record, primarily because those who knew the most about the translation, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, said the least about it. Moreover, Martin Harris, David Whitmer, and Emma Smith, who assisted Joseph, left no contemporary descriptions. The sketchy accounts they recorded much later in life were often contradictory.


(I'll also note this manual was last revised in 2003, 10 years after Elder Nelson's talk).

- The official Sunday School lesson on the Book of Mormon in church history doesn't mention either the U&T or seer stone, so I guess that's a wash.

- Searching for "Urim and Thummim" at LDS.org gets 160 results, "seer stone" 16 (granted, which would be expected because of the Urim and Thummim's place in scripture as well as latter day use.)

The seer stone is mentioned in the following ways:

- Josephsmith.net reference providing background on D&C 28- "Sept. 1830. The Prophet Joseph was concerned over Hiram Page’s use of a seer stone." (Only mention of a seer stone on Josephsmith.net; it's not mentioned at all in the D&C). Also mentioned on the Seminary timeline for D&C.

- Highlights in the Prophet's Life, Ensign June 1994 - Reference to the 1826 trial:

20 Mar. 1826: Tried and acquitted on fanciful charge of being a “disorderly person,” South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York. New York law defined a disorderly person as, among other things, a vagrant or a seeker of “lost goods.” The Prophet had been accused of both: the first charge was false and was made simply to cause trouble; Joseph’s use of a seer stone to see things that others could not see with the naked eye brought the second charge. Those who brought the charges were apparently concerned that Joseph might bilk his employer, Josiah Stowell, out of some money. Mr. Stowell’s testimony clearly said this was not so and that he trusted Joseph Smith. 2


- The Whitmers, Ensign August '79 - Another negative reference to Hiram Page's use of a seer stone.

- [url]New Era, 1974[/url]

A short book review (for a book published by Deseret Book) notes the following:
From histories and period documents, Brother Cheesman presents some interesting information. For example, in one chapter he talks about the translation of the Book of Mormon. Did Joseph use the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone? Did he study the plates as he translated, or did they lay covered on the table? Did he dictate what the Lord said, or did he repeat the message in his own words? There is evidence that all of these might have been true.



-Primary Lesson 5 - Another (negative) story about Hiram Page and his seer stone.

Teach the children about Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers questioning Joseph Smith’s revelations and about Hiram Page and the “seer stone,” as discussed in Doctrine and Covenants 28, 43:1–7, and the following historical account. Show the pictures at appropriate times.


- A Peaceful Heart, The Friend (?!) 1974 -

Because of his spiritual nature and his willingness to learn the truth, Joseph Smith was tested and found worthy to be the translator of the Book of Mormon. To help him with the translation, Joseph found with the gold plates “a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.”

Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.

Martin Harris said that on the seer stone “sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say ‘written;’ and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.”

Even with the help of the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone, it wasn’t easy to translate the sacred record. It required the Prophet’s greatest concentration and spiritual strength.


- Spiritual Gifts, Ensign September 1986 - Elder Oaks tells the Hiram Page story.

- By the Gift and Power of God, Ensign September 1977- Richard Lloyd Anderson hits a home run and discusses Joseph's use of the seer stone and hat, as well Oliver's ambiguous language referring to the "Urim and Thummim" when it might have been the seer stone.

- The Alvin Smith Story: Fact or Fiction - RLA hits another home run in his discussion of early Church history, including the manner in which Joseph found his seer stone (as part of a dubious claim regarding Wilford Woodruff's recollection of Joseph keeping an "alternate" Church history. Interesting article.)

- Doctrine and Covenants Institute Manual - Several negative mentions of a "seer stone" in connection with Hiram Page.

-A Treasured Testament, Ensign June 1993 - Elder Nelson's comment in a talk given to mission presidents. I think this is still my sig line over at MA&D.

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine...


So there you go. Everything you ever wanted to know about the Church's discussion of "seer stones" on its website.
_cinepro
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _cinepro »

I would also like to point out the interesting article by Elder Maxwell in the January 1997 Ensign, By the Gift and Power of God, wherein the eloquent wordsmith weaves waving patterns of verbiage in which he eloquently describes the Book of Mormon translation without actually saying what was transpiring:

The Prophet Joseph alone knew the full process, and he was deliberately reluctant to describe details. We take passing notice of the words of David Whitmer, Joseph Knight, and Martin Harris, who were observers, not translators. David Whitmer indicated that as the Prophet used the divine instrumentalities provided to help him, “the hieroglyphics would appear, and also the translation in the English language … in bright luminous letters.” Then Joseph would read the words to Oliver. Martin Harris related of the seer stone: “Sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin”. Joseph Knight made similar observations.

Oliver Cowdery is reported to have testified in court that the Urim and Thummim enabled Joseph “to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates” . If these reports are accurate, they suggest a process indicative of God’s having given Joseph “sight and power to translate” (D&C 3:12).

If by means of these divine instrumentalities the Prophet was seeing ancient words rendered in English and then dictating, he was not necessarily and constantly scrutinizing the characters on the plates—the usual translation process of going back and forth between pondering an ancient text and providing a modern rendering.
_harmony
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _harmony »

cinepro wrote:
The Prophet Joseph alone knew the full process, and he was deliberately reluctant to describe details.


He was "reluctant" to describe details of the most important process ever accomplished, but he wasn't the least bit reluctant about denying/lying about his involvement with polygamy from the pulpit.

Right. A completely trustworthy man. Right.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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