The lost 116 pages

[_why me]

Not quite. If I believed that someone was a fraudster and I had a way to expose the fraud, I would do so. I think that we can see this with Bernie Madoff. If I knew that he was a fraud, I would do what was in my power to expose what I believed to be a fraud.

Thus, the wicked men actually believed that they were doing humanity a fine service.

But that's the point. These wicked men believed that Joseph Smith could not re-create the pages. According to D&C 10, he COULD have re-created the pages through the power of God. But God forbade it.

What if God had said to re-create them? Jospeh makes an EXACT duplicate of what the evil men had. These evil men would have no reason to now believe anything except that Joseph was telling the truth and these pages are from the mouth of God. That Joseph really WAS a prophet. Yet, they would STILL change the pages and expose him?? Why?? Why wouldn't they convert right away? These must be some seriously "evil men".

It could always be claimed that Joseph Smith had a manuscript of the 116 pages and what he gave Martin was a copy. As you know, a reason could always be found. But it is always difficult to look into the mind of a thief or theives. Often what they do is quite irrational. However, I would have kept the pages and bring them forth at a later date. Some money could have been made from that. 10 years later, the lost 116 pages are published in a small booklet by a protestant sect. Now that would cause interest.

[_why me]

Not quite. If I believed that someone was a fraudster and I had a way to expose the fraud, I would do so. I think that we can see this with Bernie Madoff. If I knew that he was a fraud, I would do what was in my power to expose what I believed to be a fraud.

What if he had something you wanted and promised it to you if you didn't expose him? Or worse, what if he knew something about you that you didn't want exposed, something that you'd take to your deathbed?

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Most the ideas of the critics are hypotheticals. And that is the problem. They have become hypothetical experts. Uncle Dale is the king of Hypotheticals. Nothing wrong with that. But what needs to be done is find some truth for the hypotheticals to fit into concrete evidence.

[_Chap]

Most the ideas of the critics are hypotheticals. And that is the problem. They have become hypothetical experts. Uncle Dale is the king of Hypotheticals. Nothing wrong with that. But what needs to be done is find some truth for the hypotheticals to fit into concrete evidence.

I don't think it is the critics who have the problems here. When I read this statement by Smith in the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/Book of Mormon ... reface.htm

TO THE READER—

As many false reports have been circulated respecting the following work, and also many unlawful measures taken by the evil designing persons to destroy me, and also the work, I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written, one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the Book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon; which said account, some person or persons have stolen and kept from me, notwithstanding my utmost exertions to recover it again—and being commanded of the Lord that I should not translate the same over again, for Satan had put it into their hearts to tempt the Lord their God, by altering the words, that they did read contrary from that which I translated and caused to be written; and if I should bring forth the same words again, or, in other words, if I should translate the same over again, they would publish that which they had stolen, and Satan would stir up the hearts of this generation, that they might not receive this work: but behold, the Lord said unto me, I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing: therefore thou shalt translate from the plates of Nephi, until ye come to that which ye have translated, which ye have retained; and behold ye shall publish it as the record of Nephi; and thus I will confound those who have altered my words. I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will shew unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil. Wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, I have, through his grace and mercy, accomplished that which he hath commanded me respecting this thing. I would also inform you that the plates of which hath been spoken, were found in the township of Manchester, Ontario county, New-York.

THE AUTHOR.

I simply can't see a way of reading it in a way that is consistent with Smith being a straightforward and truthful man. That is no problem for me: I already believe on many other grounds that Smith was a fraud, and almost certainly a conscious one. I need no hypotheticals to read the text the way I do: it just does not tell a plausible story.

If someone who believes Smith to have been a person of moral probity and mental clarity wants to offer an account of the origin of the story above that is consistent with their image of Smith, they are welcome to offer their explanations - which will by the nature of the case be 'hypothetical'. Skeptics can then judge how far those hypotheticals are plausible and supported by evidence.

By the way, I think no-one has given answers to my earlier queries as to:

(a) Why the deity that Smith claims to have addressed him did so in a version of 17th-century English, despite the fact that Smith was a 19th-century American. This deity is claimed by Smith to be the same as the one whose utterances are recorded in Hebrew in the Old Testament. I have never heard anyone claim that those Old Testament utterances were in anything but the normal Hebrew of the dates when they were written down.

(b) Why, given that the deity that Smith claims to have addressed him chose to use 17th-century English, the deity in question spoke a grammatically inconsistent form of that vernacular.

[_AlmaBound]

But what needs to be done is find some truth for the hypotheticals to fit into concrete evidence.

What are you trying to say here?

Hypothetically speaking, you said that if it had been you who knew something about Madoff's scam you would have turned him in.

My point is, following yours, is that there are some instances in which a sort of "mutually assured destruction" could serve as a motivator for members of a conspiracy to keep their mouths tightly closed, for fear of exposing themselves along with other conspirators.

Secret combinations, for example, clearly would fall under that heading.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
I am assuming that Lucy stole those pages. At least that seems to be the common assumption. I am sure that Martin would inform Lucy about this revelation of 'evil men'. If he did, Lucy could have produced the pages and claimed: Look Martin, I see no evil men but I do know that I had them. Joe is a false prophet! By giving this revelation, Joseph Smith took a great risk if he were a fraudster.
...

From the Broome Republican of July 28, 1880 -- purportedly derived from the eye witness
testimony of some of Smith's near neighbors in the Harmony area:

A very important accident occurred at his house while the translation was going on, which materially abridged the Book of Mormon. Witness Harris was a man of moderate means, but he had become the Mormon treasurer, using his own funds for a treasury. His wife became thoroughly alarmed about the manner in which their property was wasting away, and came on from the West to arrest their destruction and reclaim her husband if possible.

The husband, infatuated more with Joe Smith than with her, sought to persuade her to hold her peace, by showing her the sacred writings they had made, and which were now nearly completed. She hid the manuscript, and when she was asked to give it up, said Joe Smith might peek for it. Joe brought his "peek-stone" into use, and pointed to several places, but the roll was not found where he directed his attendants to search. He accused her of being unfair, and of removing the manuscript every time, just before the attendant reached it. In other words the Bible disappeared just as the silver had done under the influence of an evil charm.

After a while Mrs. Harris surrendered part of the manuscript which she took from her straw bed, just to show the Prophet she knew he was a fraud. But a portion was never given up. The Mormons say she retained it. Joe Smith never undertook to use his spectacles for a second translation of the matter on the missing sheets, as he feared Mrs. Harris would produce a different Bible consisting of his first translation of the golden plates.

The woman, however, was not so shrewd as they suspected she was, and instead of setting the cunning trap they feared she spitefully burned the manuscript, hoping that if it could not be found the religious partnership between her husband and Joe Smith would be dissolved.

In this version of the story it is left unclear whether Lucy "Dolly" Harris secreted the MS pages
somewhere in Harmony, or, after returning to the Harris home, somewhere in Palmyra.

Another purported eye witness account, from the lady's relatives in Palmyra, reads thusly:

Prior to the printing of the Book, and while Martin was considering the proposition made by Smith in which he was to be paid $1.25 for the books and the [cost that?] would only be about [60] cents, Martin was permitted to take home a portion of the manuscript to read, and during the long winter evenings he would sit by the great open fire-place and study his new text, stopping now and then to [pour?] a little inspiration into the ear of Aunt Dolly, who usually answered by telling him to "shut up."

This farce became [so fractious] to the good wife, that finally she determined to end it, and. accordingly, one night when Martin was dreaming that "he dwelt in marble halls," Aunt Dolly [came] quietly and taking the roll of manuscript, went to the fire-place and laid it between the [charred logs?] and ere the morning came, it [had ascended] in smoke through the throat of the great chimney.

The next morning Martin sought for the manuscript telling his wife the most fearful consequences would follow [its loss]; to which she turned a deaf ear, refusing to give any clue to the whereabouts of the paper.
Palmyra Courier, May 24, 1872.

UD

[_Black Moclips]

These evil men would basically have to be so evil that when Joseph Smith re-translated the pages EXACTLY as the ones they had, they would have to denounce absolute proof that he was a prophet of God and go ahead with their evil plan anyways.

Also, these "evil men" were so hell bent on bringing Joseph Smith down that they couldn't even successfully keep a simple boycott together. How in the world were they going to pull off a forgery?

This is what happens when you follow The Walking Dude.