In defense of the LDS Church

[_The Nehor]

Broccoli disgusts me. Therefore, eating broccoli is morally wrong.

Don't tell me you're too dumb to recognize the error in that logic.

I think we're using disgust to me two different things. Don't play stupid word games. I'm talking about a deeper level of disgust then that. Even a child who dislikes broccoli doesn't try to prevent everyone else from eating it.

My disgust for murder encourages me to not only not commit murder myself but to support the criminalization of the act. Same with adultery. It seems to me that you're trying to make my disgust when I try to eat eggs (which I can't eat) equal to my disgust when looking at photos of Aushwitz or a crime scene or gay porn. I don't think you have the grounds to do so.

[_The Nehor]

You can suspect the answer all you want. I haven't seen proof that he did 'use' her. Even less that he 'broke' her. Still suspician seems to be enough to hang him for you. Then you construct an appetite from this....hmmmm...

Interesting, isn't it, that you require a much higher burden of proof for the idea that Smith had sexual relations with his plural wives than for the idea that an omniscient cosmic ape helped him translate millennia-old gold plates into a story about an enormous civilization in the New World, for which no evidence whatsoever exists. I wonder if this double-standard has anything to do with the fact that you were inculcated in the latter belief since childhood?

It may not on it's own be an effective argument. It is, however, a real argument. As I said before, my main argument is that it is fundamentally wrong. I don't see good coming out of it. I use that as my main indicator, that and that it disgusts me. It has been my experience that most of the human race finds it disgusting. If they still do in California, then I figure they feel the same way elsewhere. I can't rationally explain such a thing to everyone's satisfaction. I'm okay with this. I do know it's wrong and I will keep fighting it until the day comes that we lose.

I admire your bravery, as well as your willingness to acknowledge that you are on the losing side of the war.

No, I actually require the higher burden of proof about God and the gold plates. Not sure about this ape deity you refer to. I required divine confirmation for those. Otherwise, I would have tossed the idea long ago (around 18-19 when I almost did would be my guess at to when).

Recognizing that we're losing is not truly bravery, it's knowing where you stand. I'll content myself with small personal victories until this trend ends, either with the end of the world or one of those large-scale civilization reverses that seem to crop up every few centuries due to some kind of crisis. To be honest I hope for the former though I doubt I will live to see it.

[_Yoda]

What I learned from my gay friends going from 18 to 40's, watching some go from age of consent till today. Watching one 18 year old friend used and broken in many ways by a 40 year old using him for sex and his remarks that such relationships are not uncommon (they're not). Watching the pain as my friend went from straight (and much better at getting girls then me) to experimentation to claiming bisexuality to homosexuality to the perversions often associated with homosexuality. He is a shell of who he used to be but is starting to recover. I blame a good portion of what happened to him on a manipulative older guy who pretended to be his friend, got him drunk, and then started remolding his sexual urges.

Again, I see pain, suffering, and hurt. I HATE IT. If hating these things and wanting the cause eradicated makes me a bigot, then I cringe at what the meaning of bigotry has become.

OK...I can appreciate your disgust at what you witnessed. The particular experience that your friend endured was abuse....There is no other way to slice it.

My friends, on the other hand, have not fallen into that category. I'm on my way out right now, but I would like to address this issue further.

[_JohnStuartMill]

No, I actually require the higher burden of proof about God and the gold plates. Not sure about this ape deity you refer to. I required divine confirmation for those. Otherwise, I would have tossed the idea long ago (around 18-19 when I almost did would be my guess at to when).

Since when is "divine confirmation" (read: warm fuzzies) a reliable method of determining truth?

Recognizing that we're losing is not truly bravery, it's knowing where you stand. I'll content myself with small personal victories until this trend ends, either with the end of the world or one of those large-scale civilization reverses that seem to crop up every few centuries due to some kind of crisis. To be honest I hope for the former though I doubt I will live to see it.

Ah, yet more from the "Boys kissing = apocalypse" crowd. Have you been to Canada recently? God hasn't visited them with plagues, fire OR brimstone since they legalized gay marriage there several years ago.

There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life, and for Christ's sake, let other people enjoy theirs.

[_The Nehor]

No, I actually require the higher burden of proof about God and the gold plates. Not sure about this ape deity you refer to. I required divine confirmation for those. Otherwise, I would have tossed the idea long ago (around 18-19 when I almost did would be my guess at to when).

Since when is "divine confirmation" (read: warm fuzzies) a reliable method of determining truth?

Recognizing that we're losing is not truly bravery, it's knowing where you stand. I'll content myself with small personal victories until this trend ends, either with the end of the world or one of those large-scale civilization reverses that seem to crop up every few centuries due to some kind of crisis. To be honest I hope for the former though I doubt I will live to see it.

Ah, yet more from the "Boys kissing = apocalypse" crowd. Have you been to Canada recently? God hasn't visited them with plagues, fire OR brimstone since they legalized gay marriage there several years ago.

There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life, and for Christ's sake, let other people enjoy theirs.

Nope, my divine confirmation was not warm fuzzies. I can only speak to my own though. Either there is a God and he talks to me or I'm prophetic and schizophrenic or the conspiracy theorists are right and I have a chip in my brain or I'm just bat-s*** insane.

Occam's Razor leads me to the first possibility.

Canada's cup of iniquity is not yet full. It might be a century off for all I know.

Don't worry I enjoy my life and don't worry that much. I try to let others enjoy theirs too and will try to help them enjoy it when I can. I don't see how taking a stance on a political issue or sharing my moral views ruins others enjoyment but if it does, sorry, I'm not going to stop.

[_EAllusion]

One of the classic objections to people who simply rely on their personal sense of disgust to tell them what is moral is that this method is to susceptible to one's own irrational prejudices, be it derived from culture or something else. Without some moral theory and rational method for sorting through intuitions, you're just left with an arbitrary set of impressions towards things, which is a flimsy basis for moral assertions that can be said to be right or wrong. For instance, it wasn't that long ago that a large % of the US population would feel disgust when seeing a white woman and a black man kiss. It felt fundamentally wrong to a lot of people for a long time. Few are willing to argue that they were therefore rational in concluding those kisses wrong, much less argue that those kisses were wrong. How does Nehor deal with this?

[_EAllusion]

Heh. I just read further. Well if morality lacks a rational basis and really is a series of emotional sentiments, why on earth would you go and assert a statement like, "homosexuality is immoral" is true? It can't be true or false, as it is not the sort of thing amenable to rational analysis in your own viewpoint. You just feel what you feel.

[_Yoda]

What I learned from my gay friends going from 18 to 40's, watching some go from age of consent till today. Watching one 18 year old friend used and broken in many ways by a 40 year old using him for sex and his remarks that such relationships are not uncommon (they're not). Watching the pain as my friend went from straight (and much better at getting girls then me) to experimentation to claiming bisexuality to homosexuality to the perversions often associated with homosexuality. He is a shell of who he used to be but is starting to recover. I blame a good portion of what happened to him on a manipulative older guy who pretended to be his friend, got him drunk, and then started remolding his sexual urges.

Again, I see pain, suffering, and hurt. I HATE IT. If hating these things and wanting the cause eradicated makes me a bigot, then I cringe at what the meaning of bigotry has become.

First of all, Nehor, let me say that I am truly sorry for what happened to your friend. He was, most definitely, the victim of abuse, and the 40 year old who did this should be ashamed of himself.

I think, though, that you are making generalizations based on what happened to your friend. I'm not saying that bad things don't and can't happen within this lifestyle, but from what I have witnessed, the same types of abuse and heartache occurs within the heterosexual lifestyle as well.

My friend, who is in his early 30's, and gay, has been with his partner for almost two years. They live together, and are in an exclusive, monogamous relationship. My friend is a professional actor, and also teaches and directs community theater; he takes voice lessons from me. His partner is a business analyst with a local medical insurance company. They are both bright, well-educated people who are fun to be around. They don't have any type of militant, hidden agenda. They don't do drugs. They do drink socially, but not excessively.

I certainly wouldn't view either of them as deviant or harmful to anyone. Both of these young men are welcome in my home. My voice student has actually fixed my daughter's car on several occasions, and, when we were traveling for Spring Break last summer, checked in on my oldest daughter for me, who stayed at the house.

My other friend, who is 44 (my age), is also in an exclusive, monogamous relationship, and has been in this relationship for almost 20 years. They own a home and a business together. I don't get to see them as often because they live in CA, and I live in NC.

As you can see, I have a rather different perspective of participants in "the gay community". I understand that you are younger than I am, and probably have seen more of the "party" side of this lifestyle, but your earlier claim that monogamous homosexual relationships are fantasy is simply not valid.

[_EAllusion]

You can suspect the answer all you want. I haven't seen proof that he did 'use' her. Even less that he 'broke' her. Still suspician seems to be enough to hang him for you. Then you construct an appetite from this....hmmmm....

In your story, we were talking about under the age of 18. That includes more of Smith's relationships than Kimball. Heck, that includes more than Smith's relationships period. Other older LDS leaders took young wives just the same. Do you not think any of those were sexual in nature? Forget the all the direct and secondary testimony to the contrary for a second. What of the justifications for such relationships by those leaders that were based in sex, such as godly procreation?

[_The Nehor]

One of the classic objections to people who simply rely on their personal sense of disgust to tell them what is moral is that this method is to susceptible to one's own irrational prejudices, be it derived from culture or something else. Without some moral theory and rational method for sorting through intuitions, you're just left with an arbitrary set of impressions towards things, which is a flimsy basis for moral assertions that can be said to be right or wrong. For instance, it wasn't that long ago that a large % of the US population would feel disgust when seeing a white woman and a black man kiss. It felt fundamentally wrong to a lot of people for a long time. Few are willing to argue that they were therefore rational in concluding those kisses wrong, much less argue that those kisses were wrong. How does Nehor deal with this?

I sort through it by figuring out what is a learned disgust and what isn't. Part of this involves prayer to bring my mind into harmony with God. The other involves a lot of self-examination.