Prophets, Revelation, and Extreme Future

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

I guess the difference is, (well, one of them), that I do not see anything even remotely prophetic coming out of SLC.

Of course there will be rough times ahead... this would be true since, well, the beginning of life. Of course there are challenges to prepare for. Of course families are changing. You could read any magazine or newspaper since the beginning of recorded history to get this information.

You ask me to discuss more important prophetic counsel... I do not know of any. Let's see... no birth control? Get married as soon as possible and do not worry about education or jobs? Pay 10% of your funds to the church regardless of living circumstances? No oral sex? No women working outside the home? Go to the temple? Do missionary work? Don't let gays and lesbians marry?

I'm just not seeing anything that even remotely smacks of something from God.

Anyone can speak about the need to be faithful in ones marriage. Anyone can speak about the need to parent their children. Again, I fail to see why this is considered prophetic or revelatory.

Again, it just seems to me that if God were at the helm, there would be some little heads up ... but maybe not.

:-)

~td~

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Jason, me intruding again. From your post to TD. I guess I should ask TD to pardon the intrusion as well? Consider that done: () added by RM)

...One thing that the leaders would argue is that many years ago the(y) foresaw the disintegration of the nuclear family (I think many others foresaw that as well) and started taking steps to shore is up well before it was a problem like it is today. I find much of what the LDS Church has done in this arena prophetic.

What unique steps did the LDS Church take that resulted in resounding success? Have LDS divorce rates been lowered substantially? Is there less dysfunction in N.A. LDS homes now than before? Will you please give me your understanding of "prophetic?"
What you seem to suggest, sounds more like counselling/advising to me. As one will find in any responsible church. Joel Osteen comes to mind?
Roger...
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[_Jason Bourne]

LDS leaders do nothing, teach nothing. They all really just sit there and party all day bereft of any inspiration and guidance what so ever.

Happy now?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

I'm thinking I touched a nerve... sorry about that!

I think LDS leaders are just older men who are trying to offer good advice based on their very limited experiences and worldview.

Nothing wrong with that.

Some of the advice of LDS leaders is beneficial, (love your family), and some is not, (no birth control), but I think most of them are trying to be helpful.

I just think we are headed into a world that could use a little help... that is all.

The way I see it, the nomadic tribal men and their descendants who wrote the ancient scriptures, along with Joseph Smith & Co., didn't have to face global warming, vast extinctions, over population, an energy crisis, cyber-terrorism, elimination of privacy, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Maybe I'm wrong and maybe Christ will return in a couple of years, and the future is totally irrelevant, but somehow I'm thinking we are actually in for a ride.



~td~

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Jason,

I'm thinking I touched a nerve... sorry about that!

It's ok

It was late when I posted my last comment and I was rather grumpy.

I think LDS leaders are just older men who are trying to offer good advice based on their very limited experiences and worldview.

yes, yes I know. I think I have explained what the traditional role of prophets have been throughout the ages. It has not been to tell us about the latest and greatest or upcoming technology or scientific study not economic trends. It has been to preach the message of salvation and call men and women to repentance as well as prophecy about things that would happen in relation to God's plans for the world's end.

You may think there are more important issues for them to address and that is fine. But you want to define the role of a prophet to your world view. I don't thing it really works that way.

Some of the advice of LDS leaders is beneficial, (love your family), and some is not, (no birth control), but I think most of them are trying to be helpful.

Your opinion on what and what is not useful is simply that. Your opinion. Others may find great wisdom in the things you find useless.

I just think we are headed into a world that could use a little help... that is all.

I asked you in another post to list a few things you think the prophets should be addressing. what do you want help with that you don't see coming to you.

The way I see it, the nomadic tribal men and their descendants who wrote the ancient scriptures, along with Joseph Smith & Co., didn't have to face global warming,

I would be disappointed in a prophet prophesying about this topic when it is far from settled as to what is up with environmental changes. Based on my studies of this (which are admittedly limited) I doubt we are having global warming at all.

vast extinctions,

You want the prophet to prophecy the next Amazon bug or plant that we might lose? What vast extinctions are you talking about?

over population,

An issue that does not exist and Prophets have addressed it. They state it is not a problem and that we should not limit our family size. You can disagree but they have spoken about it. Didn't someone post something by Pres Faust on this.

an energy crisis, cyber-terrorism, elimination of privacy, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, etc. etc. etc. etc.

So what do you want them to say about this? Predict the next computer hacker?

Maybe I'm wrong and maybe Christ will return in a couple of years, and the future is totally irrelevant, but somehow I'm thinking we are actually in for a ride.

I do not see current LDS leaders predicting an imminent return of Jesus Christ any time soon.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

OK, I think I have not been clear.

How about I give an example.

Let's take the WoW and our physical health.

The church teaches, no drinking tea or coffee (hot drinks), no smoking or drugs. This has been around for a very long time. (I don't want to get into a debate about the specifics of the WoW but lets just go with it for a sec).

There is no one on the planet who needs a prophet to let them know smoking is bad for your health. (The WoW is almost an exact copy of an article written before the D&C was channeled but this is another point). :-) The WoW supposedly addressed the needs of the time in which it was written but in my opinion, there are new needs, new challenges, new difficulties ahead... but the prophets are stuck in "revelation" pertinent to a time in the past.

Now... if Christ wanted to help the members of the church today, or if the church wanted to address current issues regarding health, maybe there could be some information (revelation) with say, a few of the major killers, like HIV/AIDS, stress, or obesity.

Another example may be education. I don't think there are any experts in the world who wouldn't say it is vital to the next generation that they receive a good education, and that we fix the current educational system in the US, yet Utah is about at the bottom of the list when it comes to schools.

in my opinion, this would be a crucial topic for the younger generations and for the future of not only our country but the world. It seems odd to me that one of the most important of all issues we are facing (and of course I think this is true all over the planet), isn't even whispered yet seriously unimportant issues are addressed as if they were vital to salvation.

While I think we are facing an energy crisis, changes in global temperature, massive extinctions, a new world of tech etc. etc., maybe you are right, maybe the prophets don't say anything because they do not believe these are issues. I suppose you are right on this point. (Let's check back in another ten years OK)?

I also think it is probably true that the leaders of the LDS church think the future of the current world is non-existent therefore there is nothing to prepare for.

Anyway.... you are right that I have an idea of what I think a Good God (smile), could do to help out humankind, and of course God could do whatever God wants.

:-)

~td~

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Jason, from your post to TD:

...the traditional role of the prophets...has been to preach the message of salvation and call men and women to repentance as well as prophecy about things that would happen in relation to God's plans for the world's end.

Jason, I think you have cruxed the different expectations of the prophet as I've UL'd in your post above... Can't speak for TD. But I don't think "salvation" et al is germane to the challenges of today, any more than they were to the challenges facing humanity since the beginning of time.

Likewise, "...God's plans for the world's end." Personally, IMSCO, IF God was/is planning anything, I think it would be the the continuance of discovery of truths that will expand the consciousness & conscience of humanity. Then the social/humanitarian Gospel Jesus taught would base the way we humans deal with each other.

When any LDS Prophet of today, steps outside of the Mormon parameters into the world with that message--as they did re Prop 8--then I think you might see a return of some, and an interest from others.

That's what I imagine a True Prophet doing. As did Prophets of the Old Testament. They stood against the greed and poverty of their time. Maybe antiestablisment types???

Anyway Jas, I think you have put your finger on it. "Salvation"--to folks who don't believe in a God that set up humanity from a "fall" to take another "fall"--just doesn't make sense...
Respectfully, Roger
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[_Inconceivable]

For a church that claims to be the Mecca of further light and knowledge from the veil, I have been greatly disappointed. There are so many non-mormon organizations that are less afraid of dealing with and addressing with success our current societal problems.

Here is a list of disappointments that come to mind:

* The lack of a uniform policy to protect children from sexual predators until just a few years ago. The church has been one of the last in the civilized world to understand and recognize this incurable disease for what it is.

* The destructive effects of violent shooter games on the rising generation

* How to actually overcome the addictions of pornography, drug dependency etc. The Mormon church has no effective programs.

* Marriage and Family counseling through the church's welfare agency remains a joke.

* The disproportionate allocation of funds to build spacious buildings & shrines rather than address the current world problems of the living needy.

.18 feeds a starving child for a day.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Roger.... yes you can speak for me! LOL! I'm right with you on this.

I sense humankind is slowly... I mean S L O W L Y moving toward greater awareness, compassion, care, etc., yet the LDS church seems to be a follower going along with the crowd long after a new light is accepted by society.

For example, who has always fought for human rights? Whether for the end of slavery, for the rights of women, for the rights of those with disabilities, the rights of children, or more currently the rights of the gay and lesbian population, etc. etc.? Not religion, that is for sure.

Inc,

Good list.

I agree with your list.

Some of what the young people are facing today is extraordinarily unhealthy. Of course the older generations have always thought this (smile) still, just looking at the emotional and physical health of our young people tells you something is seriously wrong. Everything from suicide rates, to eating disorders, to extreme violence, to addictions of every kind, to childhood obesity, to cutting... the list goes on and on, shows us society is not exactly healthy for our young people.

One other point... the LDS church still today maintains the practice of allowing (demanding) grown men discuss sexual issues with young girls and boys alone and behind closed doors. This is utterly disgusting and should be against the law.

How this can go on in today's world astounds me.

The church speaks out against abuse (child and domestic violence) but does nothing to eliminate it.

~td~

[_Roger Morrison]

For a church that claims to be the Mecca of further light and knowledge from the veil, I have been greatly disappointed. There are so many non-mormon organizations that are less afraid of dealing with and addressing with success our current societal problems.

Here is a list of disappointments that come to mind:

* The lack of a uniform policy to protect children from sexual predators until just a few years ago. The church has been one of the last in the civilized world to understand and recognize this incurable disease for what it is.

* The destructive effects of violent shooter games on the rising generation

* How to actually overcome the addictions of pornography, drug dependency etc. The Mormon church has no effective programs.

* Marriage and Family counseling through the church's welfare agency remains a joke.

* The disproportionate allocation of funds to build spacious buildings & shrines rather than address the current world problems of the living needy.

.18 feeds a starving child for a day.

This needed repeating. So here it is again.

It is "Inconceivable" that thinking sensitive people, that do make up the vast majority of Mormon folks that I have experienced, seem to be in denial of this reality.

Is it the LDS preoccupation and obsession with "(eternal) salvation," as Jason pointed out, that narrows their understanding of the term "salvation" to "other worldly"? And in doing so direct a disproportionate share of their investment of human & material resources to "other-worldlyness"? Thereby leaving the living who suffer poverty, injustice and ignorance to the mercy of the non ecclesiastic secular world, generally speaking?

Colloquially, "thank "God" for them. eh..."
Roger
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