Rough Stone Rolling right over their faith?

[_why me]

It's interesting to contrast the modern perceptions of Zion's Camp and the Kirtland Safety Society.

We are now taught that Zion's camp was a failure, but its long-term benefit was to impart leadership skills and experience to future Church leaders. Not so for the Kirtland Safety Society; that was just Joseph acting on his own, and any assumptions otherwise are the problem of the observer. God had nothing to do with it, and we shouldn't expect Him to have gotten involved in a purely practical temporal matter.

We need to remember that 7 years later, Joseph Smith was murdered and BY took charge. He left for the west and built a successful community. I think that hte kirkland mistake was not repeated.

Much can be compared with 1836-7 and now. Back then, their was a credit crisis and now the same thing is happening. The lesson learned: capitalism is a system of systematic triumphs and failures as it goes through crisis after crisis leaving victims in its wake. Joseph Smith was a victim of capitalism and greed. But so where many members at that time too. For example John Corrill remembered that some of the LDS men 'suffered pride to rise in their hearts, and became desirous of fine houses, and fine clothes, and indulged too much in these things, supposing for a few months that they were very rich'. (332)

And this is true today. America has not changed much.

[_Chap]

I see that whyme has no problem with the odd sequence:

1. "Prophet" says deity has audibly commanded him to found a bank, and guaranteed it will be a success.

2. Bank goes bust.

... or else whyme prefers not to comment?

...

The man runs a bank, despite having no capital to speak of, and no experience. He tells his followers that their deity commands the bank to be formed, and guarantees its success:

Warren Parrish, who had been an officer in the bank and had apostatized from the Church, made this statement: "I have listened to him [i.e. Smith] with feelings of no ordinary kind, when he declared that the AUDIBLE VOICE OF GOD, INSTRUCTED HIM TO ESTABLISH A BANKING-ANTI BANKING INSTITUTION, who like Aaron's rod SHALL SWALLOW UP ALL OTHER BANKS (the Bank of Monroe excepted,) and grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins." (Painesville Republican, February 22, 1838, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, page 297)

Wilford Woodruff, who remained true to the Church and became the fourth President, confirmed the fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation concerning the bank. Under the date of January 6, 1837, he recorded the following in his journal: "I also herd [sic] President Joseph Smith, jr., declare in the presence of F. Williams, D. Whitmer, S. Smith, W. Parrish, and others in the Deposit office that HE HAD RECEIVED THAT MORNING THE WORD OF THE LORD UPON THE SUBJECT OF THE KIRTLAND SAFETY SOCIETY. He was alone in a room by himself and he had not only [heard] the voice of the Spirit upon the Subject but even an AUDIBLE VOICE. He did not tell us at that time what the Lord said upon the subject but remarked that if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well." ("Wilford Woodruff's Journal," January 6, 1837, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, page 296)

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/jos ... hsbank.htm

[_why me]

Okay, lets be honest with ourselves. The bank failed within a month and Joseph Smith lost his capital as did other investors.

No, Joseph didn't have any capital. The idea behind the Kirtland Anti-Banking Company was to pay off his debts using other people's money.

Not so. It is true that the temple left a debt of around 13,000 dollars. Plus more expenses were acquired as the church grew and additional resources were needed to be found. Plus, Joseph Smith ran up a debt for the merchandise store that was opened and debts increased to 100,00 by 1837 for that store. The idea was simple: as more Mormons settled into the land, they needed a store to buy their goods. The kirkland leaders did extend credit because they felt that the LDS church had good prospects and extended credit to the LDS church even as the debts began to rise. (see Bushman pages 330-332)

Thus, the kirkland bank was established to raise more capital and the rest is history.

[_Chap]

Thus, the kirkland bank was established to raise more capital and the rest is history.

I wonder why you have no comment to make on this aspect of the history:

1. "Prophet" says deity has audibly commanded him to found a bank, and guaranteed it will be a success.

2. Bank goes bust.

Was Smith lying when he said his deity had told him to found the bank and guaranteed its success (see my earlier post)?

Since presumably we can exclude the possibilities that:

(a) The deity said "don't open a bank" but Smith misheard

and

(b) Smith hear the deity right, but the deity lied to Smith,

then either the two witnesses were lying, or Smith must have been either lying or have heard voices in his head that were not a deity at all. Not good for his prophetic status, surely?

[_Pokatator]

Not so. It is true that the temple left a debt of around 13,000 dollars. Plus more expenses were acquired as the church grew and additional resources were needed to be found. Plus, Joseph Smith ran up a debt for the merchandise store that was opened and debts increased to 100,00 by 1837 for that store. The idea was simple: as more Mormons settled into the land, they needed a store to buy their goods. The kirkland leaders did extend credit because they felt that the LDS church had good prospects and extended credit to the LDS church even as the debts began to rise. (see Bushman pages 330-332)

Thus, the kirkland bank was established to raise more capital and the rest is history.

In other words, Joseph would have been better off getting a shovel and his seer stone and go digging?