Novak's Rule

[_Daniel Peterson]

I can see how you might read it that way, but, I disagree with your interpretation. I would only agree with you if you could point to me trying to paint you as in agreement with Novak, which I haven't. If you do agree with Novak, then yes, you are engaged in dishonest trickery. What my post does is show a contradiction within apologetics. Not that it's unthinkable for apologists to have different opinions, but, the apologists should recognize that people are reading more than just their own statements on things, and should be aware how terms like "anti-Mormon" are used in reality.

Do you seriously imagine that Gary Novak really thinks that people who turn anti-Mormon suffer a literal loss of (at least) 85 IQ points?

Do you actually imagine that there are factions within apologetics who take different positions on this matter?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

[_Gadianton]

Ah, I see. you don't think I get that Gary is just making a rude joke? Let me be a little more clear then, Gary's "humor" onced recognized as "humor" doesn't at all detract from my point. People who tell racist jokes, for instance, make exaggerations and stereotypes that none of the people making the jokes think are really true. But that doesn't make what they are saying any less objectionable.

So let me be even more clear, if you think that Gary's "joke" is funny, and holds sort of a polemical truism regarding "anti-Mormons", then clearly your definition of "anti-Mormon" is sneaky and dishonest. But, I haven't accused you of that, since you haven't really made your position clear on "Novak's rule" other than by saying you don't take it literally given i'ts a joke, which I never would have thought you did and I would have never looked for such a useless clarification from anyone.

[_Daniel Peterson]

So let me be even more clear, if you think that Gary's "joke" is funny, and holds sort of a polemical truism regarding "anti-Mormons", then clearly your definition of "anti-Mormon" is sneaky and dishonest. But, I haven't accused you of that, since you haven't really made your position clear on "Novak's rule" other than by saying you don't take it literally given i'ts a joke, which I never would have thought you did and I would have never looked for such a useless clarification from anyone.

I think Gary's joke is funny, and, based on my experience, I think there's an element of truth (just a small one) to it. You, of course, won't agree that there's any truth to it.

But my definition of anti-Mormon is neither sneaky nor dishonest. I intend it with entire seriousness and quite openly.

I should clarify, too, that, as I recall, Gary's joke wasn't so much intended to refer to "anti-Mormons" as an entire class as to former Mormons turned anti-Mormons. That won't play well here, I realize, and I don't think it applies, or that Gary thinks it applies, to everybody -- not even to every member of the class of Mormons become anti-Mormons.

I wonder if Democrats ever tell jokes about Republicans, or conservatives about liberals, or laborers about office bureaucrats, or farmers about professors, or Marines about sailors, or non-Mormons about Mormons, or women about men, or husbands about mothers-in-law, or tennis players about football players, or non-lawyers about lawyers, or alienated ex-believers about "TBMs."

I suspect that they do. I'm pretty sure that I've heard such jokes. And laughed at them. And, while stereotypes are potentially dangerous, faux-stereotyping jokes are not intrinsically evil, so long as they're not taken all that seriously. Not, at least, outside of Scratchworld.

[_harmony]

or farmers about professors...

No. Farmers never joke about professors. Never. Farmers are most respectful to professors. Even with chocolate and whipped cream. And cherries.

Professors joke about farmers though. And they leave off the cherries, which ought to be actionable.



.

[_Daniel Peterson]

My late favorite uncle, who died just a few weeks ago at 94, was a farmer, and he joked about professors all the time.

Or, at least, he joked about them every time I was within hearing range.

Quite colorfully, too. He was an artist with profanity.

[_Pokatator]

My late favorite uncle, who died just a few weeks ago at 94, was a farmer, and he joked about professors all the time.

Or, at least, he joked about them every time I was within hearing range.

Quite colorfully, too. He was an artist with profanity.

Maybe, Mr. DCP, that is our deeply rooted problem with each other, I'm the farmer and you're the professor.

[_Gadianton]

I think the lurkers can tell the difference between the typical use of the word "Republican" and "anti-Mormon". I think they also can tell the difference between jokes farmers make about "highfalutin" professors and Novak making jokes about the adversaries he was having heated discussions with on a regular basis where there is clearly a lot of bad blood. The argument you are making now trying to save Novak is similar to what I'd expect to see from a variety of bigots -- or high-school bullies -- who are trying to make it look like they're just playing around and everyone is taking them too seriously.

[_beastie]

One can't fully appreciate the irony of Novak's rule without visiting the MAD board now-a-days. I would say the style of moderating definitely had some unintended consequences over there. Kind of like an eugenics experiment gone bad. Gad, I remember you presciently commenting on this possible unintended consequence years ago. When moderators demand a higher standard from critics and allow sloppiness and personal attacks from believers... well, you end up with the current state of MAD.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Novak making jokes about the adversaries he was having heated discussions with on a regular basis where there is clearly a lot of bad blood.

I've never actually seen any signs of anger from Gary Novak. Can't think of even a single instance.

He's always struck me as good-humored and even-tempered.

Of course, I realize that you and Mister Scratch know him far better than I do, and that you monitor Skinny-L far more closely than I do, so I defer to your greater knowledge and insight.

The argument you are making now trying to save Novak is similar to what I'd expect to see from a variety of bigots -- or high-school bullies -- who are trying to make it look like they're just playing around and everyone is taking them too seriously.

I don't think Gary Novak needs "saving," but I'll always treasure your image of me as a bigot and a high-school bully.

That's me to a T!

[_Gadianton]

And I will always treasure your image of me as someone who accuses you of being a bigot and high school bully, and many other things I've never accused you of being.