I absolutely agree. (I read the same page) But short of going to the National Archives and going through the paper files, I can’t check them. And if he misremembered which trip the incident occurred on, then I’d have to expand my search to other years.tapirrider wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:20 pmHad an engine fire caused a forced landing in a field, there would be an incident report somewhere. It is true that it might not be found in an online database, but it would be found in a paper archive if such an event had actually occurred.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:24 pmThe problem appears to me that there is no online database that reports all "incidents" in 1976. The FAA's detailed online database starts in 1978. The NTSB doesn't investigate all incidents, and so absence from their database isn't conclusive. I tried to find a database of digitized paper copies of the accident/incident reports from 1976, but no luck.
https://www.archives.gov/research/trans ... -accidents
Aircraft accident reports can be found in the Minutes of Meetings of the Civil Aeronautics Authority 1938-40 and the Civil Aeronautics Board, 1940-78 (MLR A1 E-34A, boxes 1-511) in the Office of the Secretary. The CAA minutes are arranged chronologically by year and the CAB minutes are arranged by year and month. There are accident reports, ranging from a paragraph to a several page report, located in each month of the minutes. The reports are submitted to the board anytime up to a year and a half after the date of the accident. Therefore, a search must be made of each month's minutes subsequent to the accident. The search involves checking the monthly index to determine the page number for the minutes. In some cases, particularly in the 1960's, the index will refer to a page listing board actions, which then refers you to an exhibit containing the accident reports.
The accident reports include, at a minimum:
information concerning the date
type of aircraft
owner
number of passengers
some mention of the circumstances of the accident
Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
he/him
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
So what'd be wrong with panicking when you're about to die anyway? Faith saves people from feeling scared? That's stupid. If I'm diving to earth in a plane and there's nothing I can do, I'll feel justified in screaming out nonsense, gripping my seat, and tinkling in my pants. He can have his stoic look and relaxed body while his mind contemplates JEsus' love for him.
But, I still think it'd be worth a test. Someone want to head to Temple Square area and jump out a spook him? If he calmly looks you over with little to no reaction, then he's ready to meet Jesus. If we squeaks or jumps a little, then his faith is lacking. If he falls over and dies, well, maybe Jesus will tell him he never knew him later that day.
What should believers do with this anyway?
I get he at best exaggerated what happened. But even if it happened as explained it's stupid anyway.
But, I still think it'd be worth a test. Someone want to head to Temple Square area and jump out a spook him? If he calmly looks you over with little to no reaction, then he's ready to meet Jesus. If we squeaks or jumps a little, then his faith is lacking. If he falls over and dies, well, maybe Jesus will tell him he never knew him later that day.
What should believers do with this anyway?
I get he at best exaggerated what happened. But even if it happened as explained it's stupid anyway.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
That he has tied this alleged incident to the inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr as the president of Dixie College provides a date that is unlikely he misremembered. There is no need really to expand a search to other years, with the exception as noted concerning minutes that reports were submitted to the board anytime up to a year and a half after the date of the accident.
Like you, I am unable to go through the paper files.
However, in this telling by Mr. Nelson of an aviation mishap, the wisdom of Nelson and the church to publish and promote this tale is questionable to say the least. Simply on the basis that had such an incident actually occurred there would in fact be an incident record of it, and the absence of such a record can and will be used to verify this tale as nothing more than another Dunn style of lying for the Lord, this time by the living prophet.
Like you, I am unable to go through the paper files.
However, in this telling by Mr. Nelson of an aviation mishap, the wisdom of Nelson and the church to publish and promote this tale is questionable to say the least. Simply on the basis that had such an incident actually occurred there would in fact be an incident record of it, and the absence of such a record can and will be used to verify this tale as nothing more than another Dunn style of lying for the Lord, this time by the living prophet.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
From the comments section after user Chapstick noted the hysterical woman bit:
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Once again a retarded Mormon is totally oblivious to his own behavior. The follow-up comment was a head scratcher, too:Kiwi57 > Chapstick
Jeering at someone's fear is just so mature; so praiseworthy; so deserving of all emulation.I wonder why that “woman” was so hysterical? Chances are very good she was LDS. Aren’t LDS less fearful of death because they have a sure knowledge of the afterlife? When the rubber hit the road, hysterical woman obviously didn’t take much comfort in the LDS teachings.
Especially coming from someone who doesn't dare to do his online heckling without first carefully hiding his identity. What an outstanding example of moral courage!
Is Sam LeFevre a combat vet with multiple direct action engagements under his belt? How did he assess stress levels for the atheists when they were in combat? Do all Mormons just lie their dicks off in order to look like heroes to each other a la Dunm, Nibbles, and the Midge?Sam LeFevre > Kiwi57
The interesting thing is, I jumped (I know wrongly so) to the opposite conclusion. Considering that:
1) In the army I found the non-believers to be the one that struggled with the heat of combat. The believers were always pretty calm.
2) 50% of St George residents are not Latter-day Saints (Dixie State U [soon to have a name change]) students and a lot of move ins.
3) Utahn's rarely fly to St George. It is an easy drive if you have the time. So maybe the woman was an out of state passenger coming to vacate?
Will Kishkumen head over to SeN to tone police their crap posting in order to remind them that such rhetoric makes us all worse off as human beings?Kiwi57 > Sam LeFevre
I'm sure the possibilities are endless. But bigots and demagogues, like the brave dipstick, always rely upon stereotypes.
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Donald Trump doesn’t know who is third in line for the Presidency.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
The video reminded me of Holland's two roads story, which they video'd and set to music too. These are meaningless garbage lessons.
"I was calm when it seemed like I could die, therefore Jesus loves me. Others were not , granted at least one was a woman. But still...."
"When we prayed to Jesus he gave us the wrong answer so we could know it was the wrong answer when we prayed to get the right answer. If he gave us the right answer then we might not have realized it was the right answer."
"I was calm when it seemed like I could die, therefore Jesus loves me. Others were not , granted at least one was a woman. But still...."
"When we prayed to Jesus he gave us the wrong answer so we could know it was the wrong answer when we prayed to get the right answer. If he gave us the right answer then we might not have realized it was the right answer."
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
Nelson has some kind of a fetish with aviation tales. In the April 2014 General Conference he told a variation of his story, this time without a fire or emergency landing, just a turbulence based minor incident, the theme was of an hysterical woman. Almost like a different version of the same story - oh wait, that's what they've done with the first vision.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
But the earliest version of the story we have doesn’t state the detail the way you did. It just refers to an event at Dixie College. Those details were not important to the story. Attaching the dramatic, significant events to the wrong flight is exactly the kind of misremembering that brains do all the time. I’ve witnessed it hundreds of times when friends or family are sharing stories.tapirrider wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:49 pmThat he has tied this alleged incident to the inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr as the president of Dixie College provides a date that is unlikely he misremembered. There is no need really to expand a search to other years, with the exception as noted concerning minutes that reports were submitted to the board anytime up to a year and a half after the date of the accident.
Like you, I am unable to go through the paper files.
However, in this telling by Mr. Nelson of an aviation mishap, the wisdom of Nelson and the church to publish and promote this tale is questionable to say the least. Simply on the basis that had such an incident actually occurred there would in fact be an incident record of it, and the absence of such a record can and will be used to verify this tale as nothing more than another Dunn style of lying for the Lord, this time by the living prophet.
There’s not sufficient information to conclude that the record is “absent.” We haven’t looked at the relevant evidence. The one place we should expect a report to be is in a paper file at the National Archives. And we haven’t looked. Besides that, requiring documentation of some kind as a condition of telling a personal story to illustrate a point is not a burden we demand in other contexts.
People have all kinds of emotional reactions where they think they’re going to die. While I have no doubt that his memory of the incident has become more dramatic over time (also very common), the sting of the story is perfectly plausible.
he/him
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
Thanks for the notice.tapirrider wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:12 pmNelson has some kind of a fetish with aviation tales. In the April 2014 General Conference he told a variation of his story, this time without a fire or emergency landing, just a turbulence based minor incident, the theme was of an hysterical woman. Almost like a different version of the same story - oh wait, that's what they've done with the first vision.
What does faith have to do with it?On a recent flight, our pilot announced that we would encounter turbulence during our descent and that all passengers must fasten their seat belts securely. Sure enough, turbulence came. It was really rough. Across the aisle and a couple of rows behind me, a terrified woman panicked. With each frightening drop and jarring bump, she screamed loudly. Her husband tried to comfort her but to no avail. Her hysterical shouts persisted until we passed through that zone of turbulence to a safe landing. During her period of anxiety, I felt sorry for her. Because faith is the antidote for fear, I silently wished that I could have strengthened her faith.
So he tried to comfort her to no avail but the only way he could comfort her was to invoke Nelson's name? What a cute way to build up his prophetic self. Sounds to me like Nelson had to dig deep for the discipline not to turn around and yell at that mean "shut that woman up, or I will", else why would the man feel compelled to apologize?Later, as passengers were leaving the aircraft, this woman’s husband spoke to me. He said, “I’m sorry my wife was so terrified. The only way I could comfort her was to tell her that ‘Elder Nelson is on this flight, so you don’t need to worry.’”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... w?lang=eng
Last edited by dastardly stem on Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
Yeah, I think you're right. People experience all kinds of emotions in life threatening situations. I doubt anyone gets to decide how they react in the face of death.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:48 pmSo what'd be wrong with panicking when you're about to die anyway? Faith saves people from feeling scared? That's stupid. If I'm diving to earth in a plane and there's nothing I can do, I'll feel justified in screaming out nonsense, gripping my seat, and tinkling in my pants. He can have his stoic look and relaxed body while his mind contemplates JEsus' love for him.
But, I still think it'd be worth a test. Someone want to head to Temple Square area and jump out a spook him? If he calmly looks you over with little to no reaction, then he's ready to meet Jesus. If we squeaks or jumps a little, then his faith is lacking. If he falls over and dies, well, maybe Jesus will tell him he never knew him later that day.
What should believers do with this anyway?
I get he at best exaggerated what happened. But even if it happened as explained it's stupid anyway.
he/him
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience
No, none of the detail is mine. That a close personal friend of his current living wife and the chief executive officer of Deseret Book, an LDS owned corporation, that she wrote it makes that detail carry some weight.
Ms. Dew is the church authorized biographer of Mr. Nelson. The details she has documented of that incident carry the weight of an authorized biographer, and there is more. See her own words concerning the detail she offers in her book:
"The attempt of this book," the author writes, "is not only to highlight signal events in President Nelson's life . . . but, in particular, to examine major episodes from the life of the living prophet and extract the insights embedded in them. Some of these episodes in President Nelson's life took place in a matter of minutes or hours; others spanned several years. I selected each episode either because he learned something or because we can learn something from him, or both. . . . Impressions, thoughts, learnings, and insights will vary with each person. Personal revelation is just that—personal. That you will learn from President Russell M. Nelson's life, though, is a given. It is certain."
https://deseretbook.com/p/insights-from ... -hardcover
Based on who provided those details and who has tied it to the Dixie College event, It is safe to conclude that the date of this alleged aviation mishap and the details of it are a matter of record now and not excusable as the brain misremembering. Again, Ms. Dew, is the authorized biographer for not only Nelson but two other prophets as well.
That no source to an incident report has been provided by the biographer or the church is telling. And the truth is that there is no source to an incident document. You and I can discuss that we have not sifted through the archives, but that is not really relevant because nobody is going to find an incident report for this matter tied to that date of the Dixie college event. Why? Because the aviation mishap told by Nelson never happened.
Here's the bottom line. If an aircraft engine catches fire, there will be an incident report. If an aircraft lands in a field, there will be an incident report. And because Ms. Dew has tied this to a specific date, it is not unreasonable to hold some accountability to Rusty for his tale. The burden of proof falls on him and his cronies because it can be proven there was no incident report covering that Dixie college event date.
Each lie told by Nelson and his supporters only digs the hole deeper into Paul H. Dunn territory.
Last edited by tapirrider on Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.