I'm gonna grab you to be one of my plural wives in the CK

[_Brackite]

Hi Brackite,

Nice to see you!

You need to write a book! :-) Your interpretation is right on, in my opinion!

~td~

Thanks, Truth dancer!

[_Seven]

"truth dancer"]

Sad that there are so many women who don't like having sex with their husbands. Poor women...

Hi Truth Dancer, :)

It is sad and very hard to understand. I feel bad for the poor husband too.
I have never had "a headache" with my husband. Even during those times of exhaustion after sleepless nights with a baby, I never rejected an opportunity. Are women like us in the minority? I hope not.
I know we had discussed this on the old Shades board, but I have noticed that women who reject sex with their spouse either have a hormonal imbalance, depression, or a history of sexual abuse. I believe that women who are ok with polygamy have serious issues connecting with men stemming from either former abuse/rape/molestation/trauma or depression. Their behavior is not normal or healthy.

And, why is it that some LDS women think the only way to get some help with childcare or housework is to get a woman to sleep with her husband. I don't understand the logic in this one.

Yeah, it makes no sense. What's so hard about hiring a babysitter or someone to help with the housework if their life is that bad? The joke should be about polyandry. If they really wanted to get daily help with housework and babysitting, extra husbands would make way more sense. They would have an on call handyman, metro hubbie to shop and cook with, huge surplus of income to pay for the maid, nanny, gardener, cook, etc.,
and there would be no women complaining on Oprah about not having multiple orgasms. You could even throw in a guy who plays for the other team if you need that sister wife companionship and home decorator. That should be the polygamy joke coming from LDS women. (just to make clear, I believe polyandry is cruel and immoral and only use this to show how illogical the polygyny sister wife jokes are)

And, did they ever think that THEY would be the ones watching a few dozen children and cleaning up after several households while their younger, more attractive "sister wife" was getting the favors?

Exactly! And that was the reality for the old and used up first wives in LDS polygamy.

I guess what bothers me so much about the polygamy jokes is that these women are making light of a very harmful practice and degrading doctrine of women, one that continues on in LDS temples today. It makes light of a practice that is expected to return at the Millennium and in the Celestial Kingdom, something I used to fear and worry about as a TBM. It makes light of the current abuses and indoctrination of innocent children occurring within the fundamentalist communities today.
It was a dark part of LDS history, and one that should never be repeated. Maybe these women don't take their religion seriously (sadly, I did believe the words of the Prophets and took my faith seriously) and think plural marriage will never be commanded of them ...........
or maybe it's their way of coping with this disgusting doctrine which should make them sick deep down inside if they really go there.

Some of the women who have joked with me were very aware that I opposed polygamy and were trying to convince me of the benefits it could bring through humor. in my opinion they do this because my being different (a Mormon who has studied it and opposes it) makes them very uncomfortable. They want to teach me, to help me see the positive so I'll be a Chapel Mormon like them again. It's a way of protecting/defending their religion, and removing those pesky thoughts from their conscience.

[_Ray A]

Some of the women who have joked with me were very aware that I opposed polygamy and were trying to convince me of the benefits it could bring through humor. in my opinion they do this because my being different (a Mormon who has studied it and opposes it) makes them very uncomfortable. They want to teach me, to help me see the positive so I'll be a Chapel Mormon like them again. It's a way of protecting/defending their religion, and removing those pesky thoughts from their conscience.

This is true. I do know of a real life case where a woman made these jokes, and when he husband actually started flirting with other female members - she threatened to throw herself out of a moving car which he was driving.

That's what I previously meant by fake. You have to fake so much, pretend so much, when in reality you feel very differently.

[_Brackite]

I don't believe for a minute that females are more spiritual than men. Their spirituality is different to be sure, but no more or less effective.

Hello Again,

There are 104 males born for every 100 females on this planet called earth. In order for Plural Marriage (Polygamy) to be practiced within the Celestial Kingdom, there will have to be more righteous women than there are males within the CK. I was taught within the LDS Church while growing up, that there are more righteous women than there are righteous men out there, and that there will be more women than men in the Celestial kingdom.

[_Brackite]

There are a couple more Places within the Book of Mormon where it states that Polygamy is an abomination before the Lord God, in addition to Jacob Chapter Two.

Here is Mosiah Chapter 11, Verses 1-4, and Verse 14:

Mosiah 11:1-4, & 14:

[1] And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father.

[2] For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness.

[3] And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.

[4] And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.

...

[14] And it came to pass that he placed his heart upon his riches, and he spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.

Now, Here is Ether Chapter 10, Verses 5-7:

Ether 10:5-7:

[5] And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

[6] And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.

[7] Wherefore he did obtain all his fine work, yea, even his fine gold he did cause to be refined in prison, and all manner of fine workmanship he did cause to be wrought in prison. And it came to pass that he did afflict the people with his whoredoms and abominations.

[_cinepro]

There are 104 males born for every 100 females on this planet called earth. In order for Plural Marriage (Polygamy) to be practiced within the Celestial Kingdom, there will have to be more righteous women than there are males within the CK.

If marriage (monogamous or plural) is required for the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, then the number of women will have to be equal to or greater than the number of men. And unless LDS are going to theorize God splitting up the polygamous marriages, it is logically given that there will be more women there than men.

The tricky part is the (now out of fashion) idea that polygamy is a pre-requisite for the highest degree of the CK. That would necessitate at least a 2:1 ratio of women to men.

[_dblagent007]

The tricky part is the (now out of fashion) idea that polygamy is a pre-requisite for the highest degree of the CK.

A little while back, I was looking for some teachings by early church leaders that back up this claim. Are you aware of any that you could point me to?

It seems that most of the early church leaders said that everyone was required to accept polygamy in principle (believe in it), but did not have to practice it.

[_Chap]

A little while back, I was looking for some teachings by early church leaders that back up this claim. Are you aware of any that you could point me to?

It seems that most of the early church leaders said that everyone was required to accept polygamy in principle (believe in it), but did not have to practice it.

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

[_truth dancer]

Hey Seven... :-)

Nice post!

Some of the women who have joked with me were very aware that I opposed polygamy and were trying to convince me of the benefits it could bring through humor. in my opinion they do this because my being different (a Mormon who has studied it and opposes it) makes them very uncomfortable. They want to teach me, to help me see the positive so I'll be a Chapel Mormon like them again. It's a way of protecting/defending their religion, and removing those pesky thoughts from their conscience.

Yep... joking about it seems to reduce the fear, at least consciously. The truth is, the worry and fear are alive and well, just not addressed; easier to ignore or repress than face the facts.

Women don't have a safe place to speak of their sorrows and heartache regarding polygamy so they pretend. Ray is right, they fake it.

I have never had "a headache" with my husband. Even during those times of exhaustion after sleepless nights with a baby, I never rejected an opportunity. Are women like us in the minority? I hope not.

I hear you!

Women who are abused, feel degraded or humiliated, who lack intimacy, or who feel sex is a duty, typically do not enjoy sex with their partner.

I truly believe polygamy, still today in the LDS church, has done more to thwart the true beauty and intimacy of a marriage than anything in the "evil" world. Whether it is openly discussed or not, whether it is joked about or not, whether it is conscious or repressed, the underlying fear, degradation, fantasy, or hope is enormously destructive in my opinion.

I know we had discussed this on the old Shades board, but I have noticed that women who reject sex with their spouse either have a hormonal imbalance, depression, or a history of sexual abuse. I believe that women who are ok with polygamy have serious issues connecting with men stemming from either former abuse/rape/molestation/trauma or depression. Their behavior is not normal or healthy.

Yep...in addition, I think there are LDS women who truly do not enjoy the intimacy that is possible in a soul-mate type of relationship. There are women who would much rather hang out with a bunch of women friends than have a relationship that is truly life sharing in the deepest sense of the word. There are women who (for a variety of reasons) just don't like sex. There are LDS women who have some lesbian instincts and would just assume not engage with a man. There are LDS women who think of marriage as any other "friendship" and have not experienced what a soul-mate type of relationship is.

When I hear LDS women proponents of polygamy compare a man "loving" multiple women to a parent loving numerous children I get queasy; as if a marriage is comparable to a parent/child relationship. It is nuts.

Polygyny is not really a form of marriage it is more a communal lifestyle where a man is nothing more than a sperm donor. Women live together with their children but a father/husband is not really in the picture as any other than a figure head.

The thing is, the LDS practice/belief of polygamy sets women up to not enjoy sex, to not consider true intimacy, to not want to seek a soul mate relationship. As some early LDS women wisely advised young women joining a harem, think of your husband as a "neighbor". I think the very thought/reality that LDS women will one day become the older, unattractive, cast aside woman makes for some truly harmful dynamics, unconscious though they may be.

Similarly, men who hold the idea that they are going to get some new younger, women and girls (don't get me started on how perverted this is), to take the place of their current wife eliminates the possibility of true intimacy and love.

Like you, I shudder when I hear jokes about polygamy, just as I would if I heard jokes about slavery or child abuse.

I don't find humor in child abuse, the exploitation or enslavement of women, or the cruelty of slavery.

~td~

[_harmony]

Yep...in addition, I think there are LDS women who truly do not enjoy the intimacy that is possible in a soul-mate type of relationship. There are women who would much rather hang out with a bunch of women friends than have a relationship that is truly life sharing in the deepest sense of the word. There are women who (for a variety of reasons) just don't like sex. There are LDS women who have some lesbian instincts and would just assume not engage with a man. There are LDS women who think of marriage as any other "friendship" and have not experienced what a soul-mate type of relationship is.

TD, you know I love you and usually agree with you, but this one is over the top.

Yes, I'm one of those women who just aren't interested. And one of the main reasons I'm not interested is that my husband just isn't very good at it. Which isn't to say he isn't having a good time, or he doesn't try... but let's just say it's not one of his talents and move on.

If I lived in a different environment, I'd probably seek sex elsewhere. I'm not all hung up on the fidelity thing. Companionship, I have. Partnership, I have. Soul mate? I think those who have found their soul mate are few and far between. Actually, I think it's rarer than rare. Those who have found him/her have no concept that it simply doesn't exist for the majority of people. Which is probably one of the reasons why divorce rates are so high... people seeking that elusive myth of a soul mate, and leaving halfway decent marriages to find it (my boss is one of those victims).

What pisses me off is the constant harassment... tonight? this morning? after lunch? now? ARGH! I'm almost 5-freakin-7 years old, I'm on medication that keeps me alive but destroys what little libido is left after 37 years of lousy sex, and I am NOT interested!

Bleah. I don't want another wife for my husband. I want a maid for myself, but I'm not willing to put up with another body in bed to get it.

And I suspect there are many many women just like me, both in and outside the church.

Goodnightshirt, what I would do for a man who knew what he was doing...