The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

[_Thama]

Much thanks to those that have replied thus far.

I was slightly enlightened to the reasons people struggle with faith in the church listening to Mormon Stories podcasts I got from itunes.

Personally I find the evidence for the truth of the church to far outweigh any doubt. I have at times struggled to understand some things, but the answer is always there eventually.

When discussing apostacy I will certainly portray it as something that can happen to anyone. I don't think anyone intentionally goes looking for somethign to increase their doubt on the outset; Amongst this group anyhow.

gaz

I had an emotional shock that made me decide to examine the evidence and my spiritual experiences from a detached point of view, allowing for the possibility that the Church either was or wasn't true. When I took that perspective, the intellectual dishonesty that was my "testimony" became very obvious to me.

I'm not bitter at all: I still associate willingly with many Mormons, and even participate in family scripture study and FHE when I visit my family. I simply ask not to be proselyted to, and in return I neither distance myself nor proselyte my views onto them. While the early Church leaders may have been dishonest, I sincerely doubt that most modern local and even general leaders are engaged in willful deception. They teach what they believe, and they struggle to find answers and resolutions to their doubt like the rest of us.

[_Inconceivable]

When discussing apostacy I will certainly portray it as something that can happen to anyone. I don't think anyone intentionally goes looking for somethign to increase their doubt on the outset; Amongst this group anyhow.

Personally I find the evidence for the truth of the church to far outweigh any doubt. I have at times struggled to understand some things, but the answer is always there eventually.

gaz

Hi Gaz,

Then what is apostacy? Is it an infection? If it is, how does one get it? You seem to be immune as you mingle with the lost sheep, black sheep, lepers and wolves here.

Is warning your impressionable group that "apostacy can happen to anyone" an accurate statement? Does sitting on a public toilet seat cause AID's?

You may have a unique perspective that most Mormons don't. This is an apostate board. You've discovered that amonst this group, we went looking for something to decrease doubt on the outset. When we finally decided to look and check sources, we left. Most apostates don't seem to be what your leaders say they are. Think about it.

What is amazing to me is that, in spite of being a regular contributor here, the questions that we have raised don't seem to bother you much - yet. When that time comes, most likely you will seek out the more accurate information that has always been available - and then you'll leave the church too. However, I have no doubt you will remain the same decent guy you are today.

Good luck trying not to think about this when you give your lesson.

inc.

[_Black Moclips]

I'm still a "mo" but I get bitter sometimes, so I guess I'm infused with the spirit of apostasy. Basically, as I sort out my beliefs, doubts, ideas, I just want to be left alone. I need time to sort things out privately, on my own. But that is basically impossible in the church. There is always a talk, a lesson, an ordinance, a hometeaching, a calling, a temple trip, a "something" that forces you to deal with your status as a believer right then. Then if you decline or pass, everyone raises all sorts of eye brows and questions, then the gossip starts. If you consult with the EQ, it spreads to three people instantly. Then the bishopric and anyone in that meeting. Then people go home and tell their wives "You'll never guess who.....". Well now the wife may have extra needs so better tell the Relief Society presidency. Wildfire. Impossilbe to keep things private. The gossip and the all that crap is the thing that bothers my wife the most, not my actual status as a believer. For example, we have a temple wedding to go to in the upcoming months. I don't have a recommend due to question #1. I could fake it, and try to find my testimony in lying about it, but I won't do it. So now all family and friends are going to speculate about why I'm not there, assume I've cheated on my wife or I'm drinking, when its nothing of the sort. So there you go, a bitter fruit.

[_karl61]

love it when they do this:

"There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon such as obey the Gospel with full purpose of heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is left naked and destitute of the Spirit of God, and he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing, and his end is to be burned. When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors"

[_Inconceivable]

love it when they do this:

"There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon such as obey the Gospel with full purpose of heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is left naked and destitute of the Spirit of God, and he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing, and his end is to be burned. When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors"

And Mormons wonder why outsiders put the hammer down when they hold these elitist views of themselves.

I am embarrassed (and even humiliated with myself) that I bought into this notion of non-substantive superiority.

[_Jason Bourne]

Would you like me to do it? Teaching hat-looking and seer stones in GD just re-emphasized to me that there's no such thing as a differentiation between internet and chapel Mormons. So I fully expect that the elders and high priests understand that one might not be LDS and still be prosperous and happy.

I think you are really in denial. Try bringing up something really controversial like Adam God, post manifesto polygamy or the polyandry. Tell the real back ground behind the quote by Joseph Smith about happiness being the objective of our existence.

A few weeks ago in HP quorum when the lesson started getting off course someone complained about sticking to the manual like the brethren tell us too. Another complained that we ought to be able to deviate and discuss issues that we think are important. He got icey glares. Then I brought up the history of correlation a bit and how we came to the point of "stick to the manual" and how it in essence results in somewhat of a banal approach to gospel teaching and leaves a lot on the table. Oh boy! That did not go over well. That was all I said. One brother really was strong about if the leaders think all we need is the manual that is all we need and we had best stick to it.

What you claim really does not exist for most wards. Maybe it does for yours.

[_Dr. Shades]

I think you are really in denial. . . What you claim really does not exist for most wards. Maybe it does for yours.

One of the basic tenets of both Internet Mormonism and Chapel Mormonism is that each denies the existence of the other.

[_Gazelam]

Really great responses. Thank you all.

Emma Smith was never really an apostate, altough her name was somehow run down when she chose not to go to Salt Lake. Truth be told the poor woman had lived enough in her time to have lived five lives, with the trials she went through.

I bring her up because of a quote I recently read where she talks about what a relief it was to relax away from the church, since it had gone to find a new home in the rockies. She had a great deal of joy in her new life because she had been removed from the fire so to speak.

A basic tenent of the church is that we receive no witness until after a trial of our faith. This is true of an investigator who puts Moronis promise to the test. they take that "leap of faith" and get on thier knees and pray. After the pondering and praying they are rewarded with a witness of the Holy Ghost, and they know of a surity the Church is true.

For members they are given calling, sometimes time consuming difficult ones. I have seen Bishops grow into these callings and become far greater men at the end of those five years than they were when they first went in.

Trials of faith. They come in all shapes and sizes. The question is, can you lay a foundation on the witnesses you have received and operate from that solid ground. View the world from that point of reference and stand firm through the hardships.

Faith is increased on the other side, but it can be a sore time getting there.

[_Inconceivable]

Really great responses. Thank you all.

Emma Smith was never really an apostate, altough her name was somehow run down when she chose not to go to Salt Lake. Truth be told the poor woman had lived enough in her time to have lived five lives, with the trials she went through.

I bring her up because of a quote I recently read where she talks about what a relief it was to relax away from the church, since it had gone to find a new home in the rockies. She had a great deal of joy in her new life because she had been removed from the fire so to speak.

Gaz,

You didn't read my comments did you? Oh well.

About Emma Smith (your comments are a little Jesse'ish):

She was an apostate. So were each of her sons till the day they died. They would not follow Brigham Young's counsel as a prophet and did not recognize him as such (and neither do I).

She and Joseph both denied the fact (the fact!!) that Joseph lived a life of extramarital affairs called Mormon polygamy - till the day they both died.

She and her oldest son refused to be re-baptised as per Brigham Young's request. She contended that they had already been baptised - by Joseph Smith the prophet of God. They were asked to be re-baptised because they were no longer members of the Utah church.

She refused the admonition to exodus to the Rockies, where each one of the women illegally married to her husband were divided between the hierarchy to continue their extramarital affairs with them. Speculation has it that she refused because she had no interest in becoming a trophy mistress to Brigham Young just like Eliza R. Snow/Smith/Young.

She joined an apostate LDS church led by her Son Joseph Smith III.

She married out of the faith less than 3 years after her 1st husband's death.

Brigham Young said she was an apostate (can you get more surer than this?).

Joseph probably realized after his death that he wouldn't have to go far to see Emma in hell, since more than likely, hell is his permanent address. If anything, I doubt if she'd really feel inclined to go down and visit him.

She was an apostate.

inc.

[_truth dancer]

Gaz, I would appreciate if you would respond to my thoughts.. :-)

Do you want to know why member of the LDS church leave the church?

OK, let me ask you why you don't believe in Scientology.

Please answer this question, if you would.

Then know that the very same reasons you do not believe in Scientolgy are the same reasons others do not believe in your church.

There may be some doctrinal differences but the reasons are the same.

You speak of faith...

Perhaps you need to have faith in Scientology... you know, devote your life to it, pray to know of its truth, fast, obey, hold to its teachings.

Of course the confirmation of its truth will only come after the trial of your faith so, it may take a lifetime but have the faith, take the leap, believe.

The thing is most people continue in the beliefs of their parents. Most people who leave any religion are those who come to a place that it doesn't make sense or feel true.

Former Scientologists didn't leave because they got offended. Former Ralians didn't leave because they wanted to sin. Former FLDS didn't leave because they started talking badly of Warren Jeffs.

No secret about this.

There is no mystery.

A basic tenent of the church is that we receive no witness until after a trial of our faith. This is true of an investigator who puts Moronis promise to the test. they take that "leap of faith" and get on thier knees and pray. After the pondering and praying they are rewarded with a witness of the Holy Ghost, and they know of a surity the Church is true.

For members they are given calling, sometimes time consuming difficult ones. I have seen Bishops grow into these callings and become far greater men at the end of those five years than they were when they first went in.

Maybe you would become a far greater man if you devoted your life to Scientology? I'm sure Scientologists believe you would, just as you believe they would benefit from your church.

Trials of faith. They come in all shapes and sizes. The question is, can you lay a foundation on the witnesses you have received and operate from that solid ground. View the world from that point of reference and stand firm through the hardships.

Should followers of Jim Jones have stood firm?

Again, there is no difference between those who leave Mormonism and those who leave any other religion.

Why is it that LDS members do not understand this point?

Will you bring this up on Sunday?

~td~