The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

[_Gazelam]

Jersey,

Is it possible that God intersected your life for the purpose of revealing Himself to you and not to provide witness that the Church is true?

(Probably a poorly framed question there)

Jersey Girl

p.s. I'm not going to attempt to debate you on this thread, perhaps if I had more time! :-)

The details of that time are this:

I was involved in a series of discussions with a pastor of a church who called themselves "Christadelphians" (Check the spelling on that). I was attempting to Bible bash with him over interpretations such as whether or not being born of water was a reference to physical birth, and baptism by water was unnecessary.

Well the Holy Ghost hates a Bible bash, and left to my own I was shaken and upset.

That night as I tried to study things out I knew I needed to pray. So I followed Moronis promise and asked in a yes or no manner if the Church was true. In response I received an answer in the afirative. It was like I was filled up with light, while at the same time wrapped in a warm blanket. I understood I was in the right place. In an instant I had gone from despair and confusion to peace and understanding.

The Holy Ghost works by way of not only feelings but understanding. There was no misunderstanding.

[_Inconceivable]

Is it possible that God intersected your life for the purpose of revealing Himself to you and not to provide witness that the Church is true?

Jersey Girl

In response I received an answer in the afirative. It was like I was filled up with light, while at the same time wrapped in a warm blanket. I understood I was in the right place. In an instant I had gone from despair and confusion to peace and understanding.

The Holy Ghost works by way of not only feelings but understanding. There was no misunderstanding.

Gaz,
I have no doubt that you had this experience. I have had many similar experiences with Smith's holy ghost throughout my life. I cannot deny these manifestations of comfort, love, light, affirmation, inspiration and even revelation - many of which were direct confirmations that no other church but Smith's was true.

However, the understanding is not what it seems. You do not understand many things at all. You must accept them on faith.

Particularly you must accept that your "God" has a reason for commanding that Smith and others break accepted laws of the state, morality, the tender hearts, encourage cowardice and abandonement and other antisocial behavior.

But Smith's God hasn't given you the reasons yet. He comforts you that someday you will understand. Besides, his ways are not your ways, right? (but they ought to be)

What you know in your heart to be evil are what Joseph Smith and his brothers were told to commit by this same "God".

Perhaps the real test of your integrity and morality is whether you will stand up to this "God's" moral and ethical duplicity. Yes, perhaps this is the real test of your life.

I had hoped that the manifestations I received all of my life were from an entity that was who he said he was.

I now truly believe in my soul that this god's love is conditional and selective. When you think about it, this indictment from his alleged child would be the greatest of all daggers one could thrust at an authentic God of love. But he is what he is. And that is what I believe devastates many of us and causes us to exit.

You still need to decide for yourself whether the carrot on the stick is what it seems.

(and you still haven't commented on the thread I refered you to - and today you are going to tell the choir what you already know they are expecting to hear)

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaz,

Thanks for your thoughts! :-)

But, you still missed the point. Completely.

Be it scientology, Hinduism, Wikan. it doesent matter. I don't believe in them because I have been taught the true gospel.

And the rest of the world doesn't believe in them because they don't think the LDS church has the truth.

There is no difference Gaz. None.

I've read what Scientology teaches and it is bogus. All of the ancient prophets testify of what God is really like. Their testimonies are plain and clear and support one another.

There is a world filled with ancient "Prophets" who testify of truth, the nomadic Hebrews are not the only ones who claimed to know the "real" god. And, certainly you do not claim the Old Testament is a plain and clear description of the real God do you?

You think your version of truth is the real one because of what you have been taught. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with what you have been taught and what you believe.

I guarantee you that if you were born into a Muslim family you would think exactly the same way as you do now, but your beliefs would be those of Islam.

If you were born into an FLDS home you would embrace it in its totality. No question about this.

We don't need crystals to remove the space aliens from our souls. We don't rest on a lotus flower growing out of a deities bellybutton. That stuff is nonsense. People believe alot of things, and it takes proper instruction in correct faith to fix it.

As silly as you believe other religions to be, they think your beliefs and temple rituals are nonsense. Wearing funny clothes, saying goofy words, shaking hands in all sorts of weird ways... silliness to others. (I'm not making fun of them, just trying to show you how YOUR making fun of other's belief is similar to how others see you).

Faith comes by hearing the word of God through the testimony of the servants of God and in no other way.

Not all all Gaz. Are you kidding? The world is filled with people who have "faith". You seem to want faith to be exclusive to the Mormon church. Not so... why not visit other churches and listen to what others think about faith.

Just because YOU have an idea of what is or is not faith doesn't mean it is true anymore than an Evangelical or Jewish or Amish person's ideas of faith can be the ultimate truth. They hold to their beliefs just as firmly as do you, perhaps even more so.

Again... you miss the point. You do not seem to be able to understand that there is no difference between the fundamental dynamics of belief regardless of which religion or faith tradition one holds.

If it isn't taught then people don't know it,

Perhaps you don't know what is true because you haven't been taught of the world's other religions, you have not invested your life in knowing they are true, been obedient to their rules and rituals, nor have you had faith and withstood the trial to know?

and they come up with all kinds of things when left on their own.

They come up with things just as did men throughout the ages. Nothing different Gaz. Nothing.

You think yours are the real ones just like the rest of the world.

Adam didn't know what to do until the angels came and taught him.

Silliness. How do you know? You have a belief you were taught. So, you have a belief... others have their beliefs. So what? No difference.

Why do people leave these other faiths? Im sure the answers are as varied as the personalities involved.

There is one fundamental reason people leave their religions. Because they do not believe them. Just like in Mormonism. Nothing different. Nothing.

Gaz... you do not seem to be able to step back enough to look at your religion from outside for even a second. The only reason you believe as you do is because you were taught, indoctrinated with, and conditioned to a particular belief system. Just like everyone else. (The journey of converting and decoverting are similar as well).

Have you read, True Believer by Eric Hoffman?

As firmly as you believe in your truth, so to do Muslims believe in Islam, as firmly as you believe in Mormonism, so to do Jews believe in their truth. Similar to any religion... JWs, Scientologists, FLDS, Baptists, Hindus, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

You can't seem to understand this.

So, I suppose you will teach your class and continue to perpetuate the lie that people leave the LDS church because of Satan's temptations, evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, and being offended.

Oh well... I understand.

Thanks again for the discussion. :-)

~td~

[_Pokatator]

The details of that time are this:

I was involved in a series of discussions with a pastor of a church who called themselves "Christadelphians" (Check the spelling on that). I was attempting to Bible bash with him over interpretations such as whether or not being born of water was a reference to physical birth, and baptism by water was unnecessary.

Well the Holy Ghost hates a Bible bash, and left to my own I was shaken and upset.

I never heard that one. Why doesn't the HG like a Bible bash?

That night as I tried to study things out I knew I needed to pray. So I followed Moronis promise and asked in a yes or no manner if the Church was true. In response I received an answer in the afirative. It was like I was filled up with light, while at the same time wrapped in a warm blanket. I understood I was in the right place. In an instant I had gone from despair and confusion to peace and understanding.

Isn't it possible that pastor shook your little fishbowl a little? Made you think outside the bun? And all this Moroni stuff was you getting back into your own comfort zone of beliefs so you didn't have to think about what the pastor brought up? Wasn't it just you tapping your heels together and saying to yourself, "There's no place like home, there's no place like home?"

The Holy Ghost works by way of not only feelings but understanding. There was no misunderstanding.

Pretending to be bcspace........ CFR.

[_Pokatator]

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. The Latter Day Saint faith makes things simple becasue it ties together doctrine. It gives us an understanding of how and why various doctrines are the way they are. Examples include the pre-mortal life and the resurrection. Where else do oyu find this taught in such plainess and in such a fashion as to make the whole purpose of life understood? You understand your place in things! How could you go to another faith after that?

How does the Mormon faith make things simple? How does it tie doctrine together? The doctrine of the church is a tangled mess. No one really knows what is doctrine, when a prophet is a prophet or a man. The JSmith Bible conflicts the other doctrine, the Book of Abraham conflicts everything, the D&C conflicts with the Book of Mormon and on and on. It is a mass of confusion.

The accounts of the first vision is a mass of confusion. The church has over a 100 splinter groups because of this mass of confusion. This list could be a mile long for Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, etc.

What you call simple and plainness is just another man-made religion that is trying to come up with all the nagging questions and answers that have been with mankind since man existed and had a thought.

You grew up in a belief system that is comfortable to you and that is the whole of it.

[_Chap]

The details of that time are this:

I was involved in a series of discussions with a pastor of a church who called themselves "Christadelphians" (Check the spelling on that). I was attempting to Bible bash with him over interpretations such as whether or not being born of water was a reference to physical birth, and baptism by water was unnecessary.

Well the Holy Ghost hates a Bible bash, and left to my own I was shaken and upset.

I never heard that one. Why doesn't the HG like a Bible bash?

Plausible suggestion: the CoJCoLDS teaches this to its members as part of a general policy, not necessarily explicitly stated in general terms, to discourage them from getting into detailed discussions with informed people holding non-LDS points of view. Have we not seen guidance about internet discussions with unbelievers that pointed in that direction? Maybe somebody has the reference.

Unbelievers may of course translate "the Holy Ghost hates a Bible bash" into "if you discuss the Bible with informed non-LDS you may end up with the distressing feeling that their arguments are better than those you were taught by the CoJCoLDS".

Note that the remedy for losing the argument is not to change one's opinions about the Bible: it is to avoid such faith-threatening encounters in future. What does that imply, I wonder?

[_Chap]

What you call simple and plainness is just another man-made religion that is trying to come up with all the nagging questions and answers that have been with mankind since man existed and had a thought.

You grew up in a belief system that is comfortable to you and that is the whole of it.

I agree. I hold no brief for any religion nowadays, but one of the better points I recall C.S. Lewis making in favour of what he held to be the core doctrines of Christianity was that it did not look like the kind of religion that anyone would simply make up out of whole cloth: it had too many awkward and intellectually uncomfortable things about it. This he held to be evidence that it was a series of true facts about the way things worked, something discovered rather than invented.

The present-day doctrines of the LDS faith as set out by believers like Gazelam are praised by them for having the opposite feature: all questions are neatly answered, all anxieties explicitly soothed. There is a place for everybody, and all one has to do is to find one's place and act accordingly (of course I realise that the LDS faith is not the only one that offers believers that kind of comfort).

The problem is, however, that one could fill the shelves of a hypothetical religious super-store by constructing an almost infinite variety of all-embracing and internally consistent religions, each offering a particular brand of spiritual reassurance. You could choose one, and (if you were so inclined) agree with a group of your friends to teach it to your kids (you need a reasonably sized group, so the kids have the kind of social affirmation that is an essential part of inducing and maintaining religious belief). The majority of your kids would then grow up rejoicing in the 'satisfying' nature of the made-up religion you taught them, and would teach it to their kids in turn. And so on.

The point that C.S. Lewis cared about, and a surprisingly large number of religious people on this board do not seem to focus on a lot is simply this: IS YOUR RELIGION TRUE? Compared to that question, asking whether your religion is 'comforting' 'satisfying' or 'answers all the big questions about life' is pretty unimportant.

[_Sam Harris]

Chiming in late, as usual. I personally left because I came to realize that the one thing I wanted most in life I would not be able to have in the church...which is ironic, because the church claims to be all about my hearts desire.

What am I speaking of? Why, a family, of course.

I spent more time being unnecessarily ashamed of myself as a Mormon than I ever did prior to that. I experience shame now, but for entirely different reasons.

Will come back to edit this further...have an appointment at the moment...sorry!

Edit: Ok, I'm back. Like I said, I left because I realized I'd never have a family. I was one of those way-too-licked cupcakes. And that bugs me. I mean, I was judged based on actions made in youth and ignorance, and no consideration was given for that. That's not fair.

I've come to realize that I just recently lost one LDS friend. A male, I used to have feelings for him, and realizing that he too saw me as a fallen woman was one of the most painful periods of my life as a Mormon. He's to be married soon, I'm very happy for him, but I guess since he's come to realize that I'll never come back to the church, he has little use for me. Not to mention, I've had a child out of wedlock and I'm living with the child's father (as if this really truly matters given the things people do wrong and to one another these days). These two things make me undesirable. Strange, that all my female LDS friends seem to have no visible problem with this. They still support me and my non-nuclear family, they still care.

My interaction with LDS men has always been strained. I always felt like they feared me, and no one needs to fear me (normally). I couldn't handle that. I got tired of feeling dirty, and I knew that deep inside I had no real reason to.

So I walked. One of the best things I ever did. No one is going to make me ashamed of my past. Given my circumstances, I've done damn good, thank you.

[_Yoda]

My interaction with LDS men has always been strained. I always felt like they feared me, and no one needs to fear me (normally).

Hi Sammi!!!! *HUGS*

Glad to see you posting again! Hope you and your baby are doing well!!!
(We owe you an online baby shower)

I think that some of your interaction with LDS men could, unfortunately be, simply insecure men who happened to be LDS.

Men who are insecure are always more intimidated by a strong woman.(And you are one of the strongest I know!) Trust me, I know. I have dealt with this situation at work and other social situations in addition to Church. Men who are secure with themselves, whether or not they are LDS don't have a problem with me. If they are insecure, they feel threatened.

[_Inconceivable]

Perhaps you don't know what is true because you haven't been taught of the world's other religions, you have not invested your life in knowing they are true, been obedient to their rules and rituals, nor have you had faith and withstood the trial to know?
~td~

Hi TD,

Gaz does know. The spiritual manifestation he speaks of is real. Smith's holy ghost does confirm the truthfulness of the Mormon church with calm and peaceful feelings.



I'm not joking.

The spiritual manifestation is real but the duplicitous Putz beyond the veil isn't who he says he is. This is where Gaz and some others have been duped. This is why Gaz (and even myself most of my life) didn't need to look any further than Smith's church for all of the truth necessary for man's salvation.

This was one of the points I was attempting to make.