Problems With Christianity

[_antishock8]

By their fruits ye shall know them. If any god created this world/universe it's pretty obvious what he or she is about.

Your pictures have no bearing on this particular discussion, AS8. What did Christ have to do with any of those pictures?

Isn't Christ our god?

[_harmony]

Isn't Christ our god?

A skull with a broken jaw, an Aztec temple, a saluting bunch of men in turbans, and a baby's hand... what do those pictures have to do with Christ?

[_antishock8]

Isn't Christ our god?

A skull with a broken jaw, an Aztec temple, a saluting bunch of men in turbans, and a baby's hand... what do those pictures have to do with Christ?

Well, Christ is the Creator of this world, no? Wasn't He involved in the planning process?

[_huckelberry]

a skull, an Aztec sacrifice, a group of militant looking fellows, a babys hand..

Reveal the inner pattern of Gods creation.

But differnt people see different patterns, I see hope that God has created us in suppressed by the the distortions of hope created by human sin. I see sin as distorting religion into a fear inducing power manipulation. Sin turns religious faith into human abuse. That is a reason to consider sin a problem instead of a cute diversion.

[_antishock8]

a skull, an Aztec sacrifice, a group of militant looking fellows, a babys hand..

Reveal the inner pattern of Gods creation.

But differnt people see different patterns, I see hope that God has created us in suppressed by the the distortions of hope created by human sin. I see sin as distorting religion into a fear inducing power manipulation. Sin turns religious faith into human abuse. That is a reason to consider sin a problem instead of a cute diversion.

Who created sin?

[_huckelberry]

Who created sin?

Well if there is a creator God then God created the possiblity of sin.It was you and the rest of the human being who put that potential into active reality. The general faithful surmise is that it is better to put that potential into existence than not to have people at all. Christians believe that the positive potential that God created far outweighs the negative which is passing away.

So is your life worth the pain of it all? I surmise yes but I can't decide for you.

[_Jason Bourne]

Who created sin?

God created the possibility for humans to sin in traditional Christian theology.

Well if there is a creator God then God created the possibility of sin.It was you and the rest of the human being who put that potential into active reality.

No. Even and Adam put sin into play. According to traditional Christian doctrine God intended for Adam, Eve and their posterity to live in paradise and bliss. But Adam and Eve blew. Thus all of Adam's posterity are born into a fallen world and thus will sin. So God puts the rest of us in a no win world because Adam and Eve blew it. One wonders why he didn't just punish Adam and Eve and then start all over again.

The general faithful surmise is that it is better to put that potential into existence than not to have people at all. Christians believe that the positive potential that God created far outweighs the negative which is passing away.

But God did not have to set up the Fall. And he could have let Adam and Eve fall and created Johny an Sue then maybe we would all be in paradise still.

[Anonymous]

I've thought about these problems with Christianity after becoming disillusioned with Mormonism too.

Note: These are my doctrinal issues with Christianity. I am not preaching that they should be yours.

2) Catholics (used to?) believe that little children who were not baptized went to purgatory. I don't know what other Christians think happens to children who are too young to accept Christ. But, that Catholic idea is horribly unfair. (At least Mormons say that all little children get a free ticket to heaven.)

I can understand why they baptize babies but don't understand why any Catholic could believe these babies are going to hell if they didn't do this ordinance before their death. We are born into a fallen world and are baptized to be symbolically reclaimed by Christ but why that would literally be required I don't understand. Anyone who has raised children can tell you that a two year old having a temper tantrum is a fallen being and not innocent. We are born into carnal bodies, learning to overcome the natural man desires and become Godly. It makes less sense to baptize at age 8 as some kind of magic number of accountability. My 4 year old is perfectly capable of sinning and understanding it was wrong.
The point of baptism is not to wash away Adam's sins, or because we are now accountable for our own, it's that we are fallen from the moment we are born on this earth because of Adam and Eve's Fall, all part of the plan.
This is why Mormons have it wrong on the age of baptism, and Catholics have the age right in my opinion.

IF this ordinance is truly required for salvation, Mormon temple work by proxy is much more charitable than the Catholic doctrine. (but I personally don't believe ordinances are necessary for salvation)

3) I think it is rather sick and twisted that instead of just forgiving humans for sinning when they repent, god sent his son to suffer excruciating pain and be put to death in a rather gruesome way. The Christian god is all-powerful, so he did not have to set up that gory experience, but did anyway. (The Mormon god is not all powerful, so he had to have someone suffer to pain for sins in order to save his other children from suffering, because the universe demands justice).

This point is wrong because Christians believe that Christ is God. If my Savior came to suffer for me, and He is my Father, I don't see it as sick and twisted. The Mormon belief on the Father sending His only begotten Son instead of himself makes no sense to me.

The sacrifice of Jesus is evidence of how much He loves us.
The atonement was needed to teach us charity, to become perfected by learning the pure love of Christ, the Father. Without it, we wouldn't have to forgive and couldn't become like Him.

4) The whole idea of eternal torment in hell is messed up. We humans give limited sentences proportional to the crime, but God supposedly makes us suffer in hell forever.....

I'm not sure how many Christians believe this. I also don't believe Mormons have it right either. I believe if there is a heaven with kingdoms of glory, that there will be progression through them. The temple endowment teaches that progression is REQUIRED. Hell is the place of darkness and separation within us because of our sins. We won't have peace until we repent.

5) How unjust is it that Gandi and Hitler get the exact same afterlife because neither accepted Jesus as their savior? Accepting Jesus is a "get out of hell free" card. Christians believe even murderers can go to heaven just like Mother Teresa if they just accept Christ.

If we have charity, we wouldn't care about Hitler being in the same place as us if he repents. That's the purpose of the atonement. There is not a get out of hell free card for them. They will suffer horribly for their sins when they repent. What matters is that we love them the way Christ does and hope for them to progress and have salvation if we expect to be saved for our sins. Would you want any of your children in hell for eternity? NO. We would always hope for our children to repent and come home. That's how I believe God loves us and how we should love even the most evil men. I like this quote from Mark Twain:

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?"

I don't believe Satan is a real person, but I love this quote because we should never desire for any person to be in hell if we have charity in our hearts. We cannot enter God's kingdom without this pure love.

Mormons and many Christians believe in universal salvation for all. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess......All will eventually accept Christ in heaven. The difference is that Mormons place people in Kingdoms based on this "test" of earth life.

7) God supposedly is entirely responsible for creating us; he gave us ever attribute we were born with. Now, some say that he did not give us our fallen natures, that we inherited that as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve. But, he set up the Fall, and he created Adam and Eve with the capacity to be beguiled, surely god knew when he gave them the capacity to be beguiled that Satan would beguile them and they would eat.....

Yeah, Christians have it wrong on the Fall. Mormons have a much better doctrine and understanding of why we are here and Adam and Eve's role but still lacking. Without tasting sin, we couldn't know good. Eve had to partake of sin in order to progress.

9) God is supposed to be all powerful and all loving, yet he lets needless suffering occur.

That's a tough issue and the biggest challenge for me.
The only peace I have is to believe in a non intervening God.
Suffering at the hands of sinners or from this mortal world teaches us forgiveness, which creates charity within us. We can't enter God's presence without this perfect love for Him & our brothers and sisters.
It's what we do with the suffering that refines and teaches us.

11) The god of the Old Testament is horrible.

I agree.

I could never go from Mormonism to Christianity. As demonstrated above, Christianity reintroduces problems that Mormonism had solutions for, furthermore, I know too much about Christian origins to ever believe it is real.

I disagree. By Mormonism claiming to have solutions for these problems, they introduced many new ones.
I had MANY items on my shelf as a TBM that I wouldn't have had with mainstream Christianity.

There are many differing views within Christianity and I believe there are answers to be found from both religions. Wouldn't it be great if both sides could be a little more open minded about these issues and not claim to KNOW who holds the truth?
Once I learned that teachings and doctrine from Mormon Prophets were only opinions, I was able to receive my own answers on these issues. I don't claim to know anything, but if there is a God this is how I make sense of the scriptures.

[_huckelberry]

Hi Jason, those are well aimed orientation questions.

Why not just punish Eve and start over with Johnny and Sue?

A few responses, first starting over may well not accomplish anything. It would end up in the same place anyway. If if Johnny didn't sin,and he likely would, his teenagers would do it. I cannot see what would be accomplished by punishing Adam and Eve, whats to become of them? Did you mean erase them and start over? Sounds like the start of an eternal circle going nowhere.

The tradional view is that the fall was known from eternity by God and was part of the plan which through atonement would open the doors to the human family becomming something much greater than Adam and Eve started as.

It could well be observed that God did not erase Adam and Eve because God loved them.

you ask, " so God puts the rest of us in a no win world because Adam and Eve blew it"

This teaching is Satans only. God, Jesus and the Bible teach that God so loved the world that he gave his son. This world baskes in the hope of eternal life, becoming Sons of God and living in the Kingdom of God. Only Satan wants to pretend that there is no win. He does not love us nor does he see any value in our loving each other.He knows that people who do not see hope and do not know themselves loved are more easily abused, controled and , made a victim of a selfish ego. (whether or not there is a sprit Satan doesn't matter here, there are people who play the role)

[_Chap]

It could well be observed that God did not erase Adam and Eve because God loved them.

However, the same deity had no problem in 'erasing' the whole human race in the Flood, men, women and little children (apart from Noah and his family).

He just didn't love'em.

There is always a 'could be' or a 'what if he hadn't' to make rhyme and reason of anything that someone's deity gets up to that makes no apparent sense. Well, I suppose that way of handling things shows a mite more respect for human intelligence than the 'God's ways are not man's ways' approach.