Problems With Christianity

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_antishock8
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _antishock8 »

Follow-on question for Jason...

Do you feel more disgusted with me for having posted the picture, or do you feel more disgusted with the idea that your god is responsible for that kind of violence?
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Chap
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Chap »

Calculus Crusader wrote:
Chap wrote:
Some Schmo's contribution is cast in a style appropriate to what he is having to comment on, and I think it is right on the button.

"You have a valid criticism of my theology as stated, and I can't think of a way to rebut it directly? OK, then I shall go back and re-word my theology so as to allow myself to slither past the criticism in some way."

And so on ... until the critic gets bored and goes away. Then you get to say;

"These unbelievers have such crude and simplistic views of our wonderful and subtle faith."

But what faith? It is a target that simply will not stay still.


Origen wrote well over seventeen centuries ago, so this interpretation is hardly new. Besides which, it still involves punishment. In fact, no theologian I know of who believed/believes in a literal lake of fire thought/thinks poena sensus (pain of sense) is a greater punishment than poena damni (pain of loss).


Yup. The moving target started moving really early, and it can still shift as fast as is necessary to meet any criticism.

What is this thing you have about Latin? How does it help your case to quote scraps of it when talking about your deity?
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Follow-on question for Jason...

Do you feel more disgusted with me for having posted the pictur


Yes. I think you can make your point with out being gross.


or do you feel more disgusted with the idea that your god is responsible for that kind of violence?


If you have read some of my comments on the thread here you can see I have some concerns about these issues so yes, if God indeed set it all up this way, it troubles me.
_Yoda

Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Yoda »

Jason Bourne wrote:
I'm agreeing with you. That's the point. Your god knows exactly what he's doing, and it's disgusting. He delights in:


Can we delete the disgusting picture please?

(Moderator Note) I have left the link, but removed the actual image. You now have the choice to click on the link if you want to see the picture, but it is not in blatant sight.
_Seven
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Seven »

"Jason Bourne"
But why can't an omnipotent God just forgive? Why does he demand blood? Nobody seems able to answer this.




Why it had to be this way I don't know but when we forgive, we truly love our fellowman the way God loves us. Justice was served for our sins already, we are only commanded to forgive those who have hurt us and repent of our own sins. The gospel and atonement is very simple but much harder to do!

This is the only answer I have found some peace with.
Christ's Atonement satisfied the demands of justice.
Is it the law of heaven that requires it? Or, is it the justice that we are demanding of sins? Let me give you an example:

I was talking with a Mormon friend who is having trouble forgiving a family member who abused her. She believes that Christ's atonement will miraculously heal her wounds and pain in the next life. She also feels satisfied with believing he will be judged and sent to a lower kingdom for eternity. She wants justice and believes this person could never receive the same glory of heaven as her but claims to have forgiven him. To her,repentance will only get him so far, and it better not ever get him near her. The person who committed the abuse, has suffered enormously for his sins, even to the point of suicide. He has repented but his life has been one of pain and misery for his actions. Christ knows the pain this person has been through as well as the victim, as He suffered it in the Garden. The justice was already served for his sins and hers. All we are commanded to do is repent and forgive each other. She is not sinless.

We see this attitude from TBM's who hope apostates are sent to a lower kingdom and will not get the reward they will for being so called "faithful." It's not fair and they want justice! The prodigal son comes to mind.


But none of these people possess charity. The scriptures are clear that they will not enter God's presence without it. If I recall correctly, Elder Scott related a beautiful story that really hits home what it means to have charity. There was a woman who had been molested by her own father. She had brought him into the Bishop's? office and was in tears. Although she had completely forgiven her father, he was suffering greatly and couldn't forgive himself. She was suffering for HIM.
If she expected to be forgiven by God for her sins, how can she not forgive her father for his? That is how the atonement HEALED her from the abuse. That is the pure love of Christ, and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is what made it possible for her to learn forgiveness and heal, while also satisfying the demands for justice through the repentance process.


Mark Twain:
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?"
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Seven
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Seven »

"Jason Bourne"
Uh no. What you say above that Christians believe is called modalism. And why many understand the trinity this way it is a heresy. Christians believe that God the Son, one personage of the One God came to earth, not God the Father.


I realize the difference but they still believe that God (however Jesus came) is the both the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are ONE GOD and not 2 separate Gods and a separate spirit man.
However God did it, He did it for us, and didn't send a separate God in his place. How do you get around these scriptures from the Book of Mormon?

Alma 11:
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I AM Jesus Christ. I AM THE FATHER AND THE SON" (Ether 3:14).

"Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ THE LORD, WHO IS THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER. Amen" (Mosiah 16:15; see also 2Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 15:1-5; Alma 11:38,39; 3Nephi 11:27,36; Mormon 7:7).


It doesn't seem to bother other Mormons, but for me it makes a world of difference to know that my Heavenly Father gave his life for me, instead of sending a different God, his "favorite son" from the pre existence.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_antishock8
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _antishock8 »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Follow-on question for Jason...

Do you feel more disgusted with me for having posted the picture...


Yes.



This reminds me of the pro-babykiller's position that it's ok to kill babies, but then get offended when someone posts a picture of an aborted baby. The outrage they feel for having to witness the abortion, but give no thought to their implicit support for said abortion.

Jason, your god created that cannibal. Your god knew what he was doing when he formed that cannibal, whenever, and knew what he would do under earthly conditions. He has to know because your god is all-knowing, alpha and omega, etc...

And you support that because you worship that god.

But then you feel MORE outrage at me because I would simply illustrate your god's bloodlust rather than anger directed at your god for having actually created the thing. Your god created a cannibal that murdered another human and then ate it. And you feel MORE outrage at me for simply showing people your god's creation.

That doesn't seem odd to you?
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Roger Morrison »

quote="liz3564"]

Can we delete the disgusting picture please?[/quote]
(Moderator Note) I have left the link, but removed the actual image. You now have the choice to click on the link if you want to see the picture, but it is not in blatant sight.[/quote]

Without the "image", I would not have been drawn to the "link". While you have the authority & power to censor, as you did, I think you have abused that power. How many objections--other than Jason's--did you receive?

The photo was horrible and very disturbing, but I assume it was/is real. It did not hurt or harm me in any real way. In fact it informed me and drew my attention to the degree to which humans can devolve and be conditioned and indoctrinated to behave. Hideous as it was/is, and educating in its reality, no one, without going through the hoop set by personal autocratic supersensitivity on an adult site, can any longer view it...

That attitude falls into Packer's realm much criticized here, "...some truths being better than others, that are best hidden..." or thoughts to that effect...

That this photo draws attention to the absurd, unfounded belief in a loving "God" is more at the front of its removal than believers want to admit--IMSCO... I can't imagine atheists, agnostics, unbelievers removing it from public view... Enough said...
Roger
*
*
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_Calculus Crusader
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Chap wrote:
What is this thing you have about Latin? How does it help your case to quote scraps of it when talking about your deity?


This is not difficult. Latin is one of the languages in which Christian ideas were articulated.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_The Nehor
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _The Nehor »

Roger Morrison wrote:It is REALLY hard to believe that thinking, intelligent beings can be so mislead and duped to believe in any form of a "God" as presented in Judeo-Christianism. Or, in any other religion that I am aware of...


And despite there being thinking, intelligent beings for thousands of years only in the last few centuries has atheism gained any traction. Are we that much smarter then everyone who went before or is this just another one of those phases every time period goes through?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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