This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

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_cinepro
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _cinepro »

I love how the record makes careful mention that Lot didn't know what was going on. It makes you wonder how the story was preserved if the only people that knew about it were the daughters. And I wonder what the girls' reaction was when they discovered other tribes of people wandering around.. ("Oh snap!" :surprised: ) I wonder how that conversation went...

Firstborn: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

Younger: Hold on now. Let's not be to quick here. We just saw the cities in the plain get destroyed, but there might be other people on the other sides of these mountains.

Firstborn: I don't think so. Let's not waste time. We need to get some kids going and fast. I'll get dad drunk tonight, you go tomorrow.

Younger: I really think we need to think this through. Maybe we should pray about it, and ask God if there is any other way. Besides, it won't just be us and Dad. We're also going to have to figure out the logistics of our children having children and so on. How much wine are we going to need for that...?


for what it's worth, here's how the CES manual explains it:

The account of the incestuous seduction of Lot by his two daughters is a shocking one but one which, again, illustrates that the Old Testament records the evils of the people as well as their righteousness. There is no way to justify the wickedness of what the two daughters did, although it may be better understood when it is considered that the daughters may have thought that the whole world had been destroyed in the holocaust that befell Sodom and Gomorrah and that Lot was the only source of children left to them. Moses may have included this account in the record because it shows the beginnings of the Moabites and the Ammonites, two peoples that would play an important role in the history of the people of Israel.


Of course, the big question is why LDS would find the story of Lot any more disturbing than the story of Adam and Eve. If A&E were truly the "first parents", then there had to be a lot of father/daughter- mother/son - brother/sister incest going on to get the ball rolling. Much more than just the two drunken nights in Genesis 19, yet no one bats an eye. And I doubt anyone was drunk for those encounters. Everyone knew what they were doing.
_bcspace
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _bcspace »

Of course, the big question is why LDS would find the story of Lot any more disturbing than the story of Adam and Eve.


I'm not disturbed by it. The manual obviously failed to consider the Adam and Eve situation.
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_The Nehor
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _The Nehor »

Mercury wrote:You make me sick.


My work here is done.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_ludwigm
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _ludwigm »

Dr. Shades wrote:I thought the whole "Lot got his daughters pregnant" story was merely a form of blood libel by Israelite writers against their mortal enemies, the Ammonites and the Moabites.

Genesis 19:37
And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
Genesis 19:38
And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
Deuteronomy 23:3
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever

by the way
The israelites had many mortal enemies: all the people around them who didn't want to give up their land to the israelites,
which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints

Oops!!!
I think I mixed up a little! That is from D&C 57:1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God ...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Amaterasu
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _Amaterasu »

I like my ancient feminist because she gives multiple meanings to what I've written over the last year. :)
The first man to see an illusion by which men have flourished for centuries surely stands in a lonely place.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Amaterasu wrote:I like my ancient feminist because she gives multiple meanings to what I've written over the last year. :)

Who is your "ancient feminist?"
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Pokatator
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _Pokatator »

Mercury wrote:Maybe in the Droopy infested backwoods of West Virginia this thing happens all the time.


Reminds me of story of a young Droopy type that brings his fiance home to introduce her to his family. He tells his father that he wants to marry her and announces she is a virgin.

The father says, "No way, you ain't gonna marry her!! If she's not good enough for her own family she ain't good enough for ours!"
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_truth dancer
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _truth dancer »

Oh, thank you home teacher for helping us to understand this valuable story.

You have enlightened our understanding of God and how deeply he cares about sperm.

I didn't realize until now how much God truly cares about those little guys. It is now clear that the sperm, I mean seed, of the special, elite men have some sort of specialness that is more important than, say goodness, integrity, compassion, charity, dignity, care, love.

I now see what is important to God.

Yes, even though God could create a universe, solar systems, stars, life, diamonds, and butterflies, he had to have women get their father drunk and manipulate (smile) him to have sex with them in order to keep the special seed going. WOW!!!

Oh, God of miracles! And what righteous women! Truly great examples for all of us. (Just thinking though, it couldn't possibly be that Moses is excusing Lot's incestual rapes by blaming it on his daughters? Oh no, of course not, we have never seen anything like men blaming women for their sexual behaviors). :surprised:

I have to say, it is sort of weird to me how concerned God is with sex and sperm, but you have the spirit and I'm sure you have a testimony of this valuable Biblical truth.

Thanks HT... you rock!

On a more serious note, one of the sweet fruits of non-belief is that I no longer have to try to twist, excuse, and contort horrific behavior to make it appear Godly; no more trying to convince myself the disgusting is righteousness. No more attempting to believe God is at the helm of the gross, cruel, and despicable behavior we see in the Old Testament.

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Chap
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Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _Chap »

truth dancer wrote:
You have enlightened our understanding of God and how deeply he cares about sperm.

I didn't realize until now how much God truly cares about those little guys. It is now clear that the sperm, I mean seed, of the special, elite men have some sort of specialness that is more important than, say goodness, integrity, compassion, charity, dignity, care, love.

I now see what is important to God.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

Or if if you just want to read the lyrics ... (perhaps they haven't quite got the LDS attitude right):

http://taboo-breaker.org/religion/sperm.htm

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood!

Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
God needs everybody's.
Mine! And mine! And mine!

Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaate!
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_marg

Re: This month's lesson: The faith of Lot's daughters

Post by _marg »



Thanks Chap, I enjoyed that. I saw that movie well before I ever took the slightest interest in religion. Must watch it again.
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