Problems With Christianity

[_huckelberry]

Jason, I have limited time today so thought I have more thoughts about your question I am posting a simple related observation for now.

Why was there blood? Perhaps there is a parallel to asking what is required to end slavery in the United States. Shiloh, Antetiem, Gettesburg, Cold Harbor.

perhaps if we waited for knowledge to eliminate slavery without war? But them it would still cost the blood of the slaves waiting for its demise. That would be true if in wishful thinking slavery ended in 1776 .

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, is an omnipotent God bound by law? or why would he be if he is all powerful? Is that what you are really asking?

I am not sure I am asking that. But we can discuss it. LDS believe God is subject to certain laws that may outside of Himself. One of those may be the law of Justice which seems, in LDS thought, to demand some sort of payment for sin. The Book of Mormon seems to teach that this sacrafice had to be infinite and only God could do it. Also the doctrine of the conflict between mercy and justice are outlined quite well. The idea of God's mercy in offering Jesus to atone for our sins is that mercy over powers justice.

Does traditional Christianity believe that the law of Justice and mercy exist beyond and outside God? I though this God created it all and set all the rules. So maybe yes, I am asking what you say above.

If someone murdered your family, what would be appropriate punishment for the sinner in your eyes? When would justice be met for their crimes?

I am not God.

God doesn't demand blood, the law requires it

Whose law? See to me the argument you are making and about to make is based on Man's sense of law and justice.

We require it of those who commit crimes against us here on earth and many desire and expect justice to be served in hell of the wicked.

we may but does God? Did you not argue in another post that we should have charity and not demand punishment? Could not an omnipotent God forgive without punishment?

There must be a fixed punishment attached to any broken law of God.

Why? Who says this? Did God set it up this way? If yes why? Or is there some rule outside of God?

Look I know everything you are tellling me and am well versed in the scriptures that lay this out along with plenty of exposes by various LDS leaders on the idea as well as other theologians.

Because of this there could not be complete forgiveness or hope for fallen man to be saved if someone did not pay the complete price attached to these laws. We could never meet those demands of justice on our own and be reconciled to God. It would never be enough.
Mercy does save us but only after the demands of justice were paid for our crimes by Christ's atoning sacrifice.

So God cannot forgive us without blood. Then there is a rule that is above and outside of God even in traditional Christianity?

Elder Oaks: http://ldsces.org/general%20authority%2 ... 0Oaks.html

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As noted I am familiar with the arguments based on scripture and theology. I am just questioning whether it is rational.

[_Jason Bourne]

No. It is a serious question. I wonder why God cannot just forgive us without needing a sacrifice, even if it was him or his son.

That's easy to figure out.

Really? Have at it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Really? Have at it.

I don't understand why this is difficult, Jason. I'll start with a question. Do you believe that Christ died on the cross and resurrected?

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't understand why this is difficult, Jason. I'll start with a question. Do you believe that Christ died on the cross and resurrected?

My belief or faith has no bearing on this question.

Rather than ask questions perhaps answering the ones I have asked or working with the problems I have posed might be a good idea.

Is the omnipotent God of Christianity bound by some rule outside himself or is the demand for punishment something this God established?

[_Jersey Girl]

I don't understand why this is difficult, Jason. I'll start with a question. Do you believe that Christ died on the cross and resurrected?

My belief or faith has no bearing on this question.

Rather than ask questions perhaps answering the ones I have asked or working with the problems I have posed might be a good idea.

Is the omnipotent God of Christianity bound by some rule outside himself or is the demand for punishment something this God established?

Here, I'll do it in a series of questions.

Do Christians believe that Christ died on the cross and was resurrected?

Would Christians believe that happened without the testimony of the Gospels?

Would the Gospels exist if not for it happening?

If it didn't happen, would people believe that they too could die and be resurrected?

I'm talking about what I've often referred to as "the ultimate object lesson" which is Christ.

[_Jason Bourne]

Here, I'll do it in a series of questions.

Do Christians believe that Christ died on the cross and was resurrected?

Would Christians believe that happened without the testimony of the Gospels?

Would the Gospels exist if not for it happening?

If it didn't happen, would people believe that they too could die and be resurrected?

I'm talking about what I've often referred to as "the ultimate object lesson" which is Christ.

What do any of these have to do with it? As noted in my post to seven, I am will aware of the theology behind this. The real question is whether it is rational for and even ethical for a perfect omnipotent holy being to create beings that can and will sin then punish them for it if they do not accept the person he punishes for that sin. Why could not this God just fogive? I don't have to beat my child to forgive them of infractions.

[_Jason Bourne]

Do Christians believe that Christ died on the cross and was resurrected?

Of course.

Would Christians believe that happened without the testimony of the Gospels?

No.

Would the Gospels exist if not for it happening?

of course they could exist. It may have been all made up. It may have been that Jesus was just a man who was crucified and that his followers made a religion out of it.

If it didn't happen, would people believe that they too could die and be resurrected?

Sure. They may be believing a falsehood.

[_Jersey Girl]

Here, I'll do it in a series of questions.

Do Christians believe that Christ died on the cross and was resurrected?

Would Christians believe that happened without the testimony of the Gospels?

Would the Gospels exist if not for it happening?

If it didn't happen, would people believe that they too could die and be resurrected?

I'm talking about what I've often referred to as "the ultimate object lesson" which is Christ.

What do any of these have to do with it? As noted in my post to seven, I am will aware of the theology behind this. The real question is whether it is rational for and even ethical for a perfect omnipotent holy being to create beings that can and will sin then punish them for it if they do not accept the person he punishes for that sin. Why could not this God just fogive? I don't have to beat my child to forgive them of infractions.

I think I could go off on several tangents here, but in the interest of time I'll try not to! I don't think he punished Christ for our sins. I don't see it as punishment at all.

One of the big problems I see with the theology (besides what you've suggested) has to do with our human nature. I don't see how Christians can believe that our nature will be suddenly changed in the after life when what Christians have largely set up is a pass/fail system of judgement. Note that I don't say that God set the system up.

Christians admit they are sinners and that their eternal destiny depends on grace. No Christian that I know of believes they don't continue to sin in this life but do believe they can be forgiven of sins.

So when we die, how will our human nature suddenly be transformed to a state of perfection?

I don't have the answers to that.

I do think that the Bible contains so much fallible (greedy, jealous, envious, ethnocentric) man speaking for God.

Jersey Girl

[_Roger Morrison]

Jason, from a post above you responded to questions thus:

Why? Who says this? Did God set it up this way? If yes why? Or is there some rule outside of God?

Look I know everything you are tellling me and am well versed in the scriptures that lay this out along with plenty of exposes by various LDS leaders on the idea as well as other theologians.

(...Mercy does save us but only after the demands of justice were paid for our crimes by Christ's atoning sacrifice...)

So God cannot forgive us without blood. Then there is a rule that is above and outside of God even in traditional Christianity?

Jason, you are really calling forth challenges to Christian-traditions, in and of every sect. As well as to Judaism's rabbinic tradition that base them all. Well done... Have you read my response--Feb 14, 8:06 PM, several above--to your original "serious question"???
Roger
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