Is this what you would tell Elizabeth Smart & her parents?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I too do not believe this to be uniquely Mormon but that fact doesn't make it any less "cruel and disgusting".

From our point of view, now.

I don't think it was much out of the ordinary in earlier generations, and I don't think many people would have found it so outlandish.

Attitudes toward sex have changed over the past two or three generations about as radically as anything else in Western society -- and, in my view, while some things are positive, the changes have not entirely been to the good.

I remember a poem that I read many years ago in a class on Greek lyric poetry (by Archilochus, I think, but maybe by Simonides of Chios?), in which a mother, if I'm not mistaken, tells her son, who is going off to war, that she wants him either to come back with the shield of an enemy soldier or, if not that, on his own shield (i.e., dead).

That seems horribly harsh and unmaternal to us, of course, but it wasn't particularly unusual in many pre-modern cultures, and would simply have been thought of as honorable and right.

It's all too easy to sit in condemnation of the attitudes of previous generations and other cultures. While doing so, however, we should always be humbly aware of the fact that future generations and foreign cultures will find us at least as absurd and/or appalling.

[_harmony]

It's all too easy to sit in condemnation of the attitudes of previous generations and other cultures. While doing so, however, we should always be humbly aware of the fact that future generations and foreign cultures will find us at least as absurd and/or appalling.

When that previous generation was supposedly talking to God on a regular basis and gaining Godly knowledge on behalf of God's own children... and this is the tripe that comes out... it isn't humility that's needed. It's righteous indignation.

[_Jason Bourne]

It's all too easy to sit in condemnation of the attitudes of previous generations and other cultures. While doing so, however, we should always be humbly aware of the fact that future generations and foreign cultures will find us at least as absurd and/or appalling.

Well Dan I grew up in the 70s and vividly recall hearing the better dead than lose one's virtue more than once and I know I heard in in conference. As a teen I recall doing a head turn and and mental "Say what?!" when I heard the comments about a struggling to the death in a rape situation. All these things just seemed so harsh to me then and I know they are now.

Perhaps our leaders were giving an extra measure of strong medicine in order to counter the sexual revolution that was then at it pinnacle. But then again can't we expect our leaders to be just a little bit better than the culture and times they live in?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

It's all too easy to sit in condemnation of the attitudes of previous generations and other cultures. While doing so, however, we should always be humbly aware of the fact that future generations and foreign cultures will find us at least as absurd and/or appalling.

I agree with this. Society is always evolving and improving. So what teachings and doctrines of today do you think will be considered absurd and/or appalling to future LDS? The female priesthood ban? The attitudes toward gays? The Book of Mormon as literal history? The white shirt and tie as the priesthood "uniform?"

It may not be any of these specific things, but it is indeed a fact that future LDS will consider many of the teachings and "doctrines" taught by the prophets and apostles today as absurd and appalling.

[_Daniel Peterson]

When that previous generation was supposedly talking to God on a regular basis and gaining Godly knowledge on behalf of God's own children... and this is the tripe that comes out... it isn't humility that's needed. It's righteous indignation.

Prophets and apostles are human vessels, impacted by their culture and upbringing. That's clearly true in the Bible; I see no reason to expect otherwise in the modern era.

"Righteous indignation" against decent people of earlier eras for their blind spots and inadequacies may serve to foster a gratifying sense of superiority, but I don't think it's very fair or useful.

Well Dan I grew up in the 70s and vividly recall hearing the better dead than lose one's virtue more than once and I know I heard in in conference. As a teen I recall doing a head turn and and mental "Say what?!" when I heard the comments about a struggling to the death in a rape situation. All these things just seemed so harsh to me then and I know they are now.

I heard the teaching a few times in the sixties and seventies, too. And I reacted pretty much as you did. But I don't believe that I've heard it since. I think that was the dying gasp of that sort of expression, usually on the lips of people literally born (and often actually raised) in the nineteenth century -- the Victorian era.

Perhaps our leaders were giving an extra measure of strong medicine in order to counter the sexual revolution that was then at it pinnacle. But then again can't we expect our leaders to be just a little bit better than the culture and times they live in?

I think they are, actually.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I agree with this. Society is always evolving and improving.

I wish I were that optimistic.

Society is always evolving and changing. But I don't see a neat linear ascent, as you seem to.

So what teachings and doctrines of today do you think will be considered absurd and/or appalling to future LDS? The female priesthood ban? The attitudes toward gays? The Book of Mormon as literal history? The white shirt and tie as the priesthood "uniform?"

The latter, I hope

It may not be any of these specific things, but it is indeed a fact that future LDS will consider many of the teachings and "doctrines" taught by the prophets and apostles today as absurd and appalling.

By nature, there are few "facts" about the future. Yours isn't one of them.

Anyway, my comment was about the fact that we, as a generation, will look more or less ridiculous to our posterity and to foreign cultures. That applies to you as well as to me. Just as it's easy to suppose that we will look wise and good while previous generations look silly and morally blind, it's all too tempting to suppose that My Wonderful Attitudes will all be vindicated as absolute truth with the passage of time while Your Asinine Notions will inevitably be revealed as the morally bankrupt idiocies that I already recognize them as being.

[_Jason Bourne]

Perhaps our leaders were giving an extra measure of strong medicine in order to counter the sexual revolution that was then at it pinnacle. But then again can't we expect our leaders to be just a little bit better than the culture and times they live in?

I think they are, actually.

Well I think in many ways they are as well of course. I was referring specifically to when we tend to excuse teachings that are less then best, good or even Christ like as being a product of the culture.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

By nature, there are few "facts" about the future. Yours isn't one of them.

I agree that your fact is true. Future generations will find some of our attitudes appalling and absurd.

Anyway, my comment was about the fact that we, as a generation, will look more or less ridiculous to our posterity and to foreign cultures. That applies to you as well as to me. Just as it's easy to suppose that we will look wise and good while previous generations look silly and morally blind, it's all too tempting to suppose that My Wonderful Attitudes will all be vindicated as absolute truth with the passage of time while Your Asinine Notions will inevitably be revealed as the morally bankrupt idiocies that I already recognize them as being.

This thread isn't about your attitude or mine. The context of this thread is about the attitudes and teachings of previous prophets and apostles. Those teachings were absurd and appalling, based on our current attitudes. But while we are so quick to condemn past prophets and apostles, we need to keep in mind that future generations will find some of the current LDS teachings absurd and appalling too. I know it applies to you and me too, but the thread is about LDS teachings from the prophets and apostles.

[_Inconceivable]

We're not talking about silly things like whether or not missionaries ought to part their hair in the middle (a rule in my mission in the late 70's).

We are talking about blind guides (Spencer W. Kimball, Mark E. Peterson etc. - PROPHETS, SEERS and REVELATORS of the "ONLY TRUE CHURCH") revealing that God has given our children no choice but SUICIDE in order to avoid the saving grace of Savior's Atonement.

Anyone else see what is horribly broken here?

[_harmony]

Prophets and apostles are human vessels, impacted by their culture and upbringing. That's clearly true in the Bible; I see no reason to expect otherwise in the modern era.

Prophets and apostles are God's mouthpieces. If their culture and upbringing has more bearing on what comes out of their mouths than what God is telling them, then they are worse than useless.

Where much is given, much is expected. It behooves our leaders to know and understand the mind of God. It is their calling to know and understand the mind of God. They and only they have the keys to all things. They and only they are required by their callings to live up to the responsibility that they accepted. They don't get to lay it down with a caveat of speaking as a man, when they're standing behind the podium and speaking to the people. They are called as prophets, seers, and revelators, and the expectation is that they will act as prophets, seers, and revelators when they are acting in the capacity of their callings.

When they don't, we get tripe like the subject of this thread.

I realize that you are unable to demand accountability from our leaders. Not all of us are bound that tightly.