Is this what you would tell Elizabeth Smart & her parents?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Prophets and apostles are God's mouthpieces. If their culture and upbringing has more bearing on what comes out of their mouths than what God is telling them, then they are worse than useless.

I think you expect me to disagree.

I don't.

But I don't think that was so in this case.

I realize that you are unable to demand accountability from our leaders. Not all of us are bound that tightly.

I believe that they're accountable, but chiefly to God.

I don't believe, within the context of their time and culture, that the alleged sins you take such seeming gratification in attributing to them were actually sinful.

I try to be charitable, partially in the hope that others (including God) will be charitable to me.

[_cinepro]

Joe, you'll be relieved to hear that the Church may be making visible moves away from the attitudes of the past. For example, this recent article in the Ensign about date rape is more moderate in tone, and seems to shift away from the sentiments expressed by the quotes in your post:

A Hole in Her Soul

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks Harmony,

I think your statement is one of the most valid.

This thread brings back some very harsh memories that I have forgotten for years.

I venture that after we die, we will discover there are many beyond the veil that are hunting down these arrogant, ignorant, uninspired men for some come-up'ns.

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[_truth dancer]

Hi Dan,

It's all too easy to sit in condemnation of the attitudes of previous generations and other cultures. While doing so, however, we should always be humbly aware of the fact that future generations and foreign cultures will find us at least as absurd and/or appalling.

To be really clear... this thread is not just a condemnation of the attitudes of previous generations and other cultures. There were all sorts of atrocities and cruelty throughout human history. We are a pretty new species and have a long way to go to figure out how to live in harmony. (Actually it is amazing we have come so far in only a few hundred thousand years or so).

I think it is valuable to look at our past and learn from it, recognize what has been harmful and destructive, and move toward enlightenment, compassion, and care.

For example because torture was accepted for much of human history doesn't mean we can ignore it, or that we shouldn't describe it for what it was (is).

Previously we have had threads on this forum concerning what sorts of things will be considered horrific, primitive, and odd by future generations. Of course all sorts of things will change as we develop greater compassion, equality, and concern for others and our world.

I see it already in those who have a consciousness of care for our planet. I see it in those who are beginning to view women as equal to men.

But this is not really the point. The point of this thread is that prophets and apostles and other leaders of the LDS church claim to be in communion with Jesus Christ; indeed His very spokesmen. The voice of Jesus Christ on the earth. You know, "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants it is the same."

These same men are teaching some pretty horrific ideas concerning rape and sexual assault... not generations ago but still today. And some LDS members on this very thread still hold to these archaic teachings which demonstrates the strength of the teaching.

The teaching is alive and well. Maybe some people in the church recognize it for what it is, you being one of them, (nice), still, obviously there are those in the LDS church who hold to the teachings of LDS prophets as truth regardless of how cruel and unhealthy they are.

~td~

[_Daniel Peterson]

These same men are teaching some pretty horrific ideas concerning rape and sexual assault... not generations ago but still today.

I'm unaware of these horrific ideas.

[_karl61]

We as adults can listen and say that this pine box thing is garbage but the the issue is the harm is does the youth who listen to such things. They get paranoid and depressed if they make a mistake and will likely keep it to themselves. The problem is when you speak or write such things to large groups of people the impact can not be messured.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

These same men are teaching some pretty horrific ideas concerning rape and sexual assault... not generations ago but still today.

I'm unaware of these horrific ideas.

Since we're on the third page it's sometimes easy to forget what the thread is about. Here is a conversation you had with truth dancer about these "horrific ideas" back on page 1.You seemed to condemn these "dispicable" teachings.

This dispicable teaching [about how to deal with rape and sexual assault] is one of the most cruel and disgusting of all LDS nonsense.

I strongly suspect, though it would take me some considerable effort to demonstrate it, that there is absolutely nothing uniquely LDS about the better-dead-than-unchaste notion, but that, indeed, it was quite common among people of the same age as those cited in the opening post.

The fact that it is still alive and well, believed and honored in the church (see BC's statements above) is disheartening to say the least.

I neither believe it, teach it, nor honor it.

Truth dancer must be scratching her head as you seem to have forgotten what this discussion is about;)

[_Inconceivable]

Joe, you'll be relieved to hear that the Church may be making visible moves away from the attitudes of the past..
A Hole in Her Soul

Cinepro,

From the article, we read this telling statement:

Her secret exploded. It had been her intent to put the episode behind her, to forget it and never let anyone know that “she was not a virgin—that she felt dirty—that she no longer felt worthy of Heavenly Father’s love.”

..But my beautiful daughter wished it had killed her

Where was this crap imprinted upon her? Herein lies the evil.

She will never begin to fully recover until she discovers that her first impressions came from the same organization that attempts to heal her.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I haven't forgotten what the thread is about.

But I won't conflate all of the quotations in the opening post as synonymous.

[_JoetheClerk]

So Bishop Peterson, you don't believe what the Apostles have plainly taught as Church Doctrine?

Maybe there is hope for you yet.

Had to sit through a talk by one of the Stake Presidency yesterday on this very topic. It is still being taught and Spencer Kimballs book is still being quoted. Stripling warriors are still held up as a great example even as Utah has one of the lowest rates of young men joining the military in the nation.

Talk the talk guys but you don't walk the walk.

Would you really rather have an Elizabeth Smart dead rather than home alive? She committed NO sin, she is a victim. Partly of her own father who was too damn cheap to hire real contractors to work on his McMansion and instead hired ex-cons who then came back and kidnapped and 'married' the poor girl.

Maybe you can push "The inspired leaders" to actually tell what the doctrine is these days?