Our newest member, Wayneman: Shades' missionary companion??

[_The Nehor]

I also think it's silly to claim that I'm "persecuting the saints."

You are not only persecuting the saints but you also persecute Joseph Smith. He saw God you didn't. He translated you didn't. He spoke to an angel you didn't.

But now you and your whole profession is a sham of second guessing and back stabbing against Joe himself. You are putting new words into his mouth and retranslating them. You don't believe him so you change and interrupt his words. You don't sustain prophets you persecute them and their words.

Meldrum Mormons are the true Mormons. You are as phony as the pharisees in Jesus' day. Meldrumites believe Joe and follow. They sustain the prophets. But you have a degree and they have faith and belief in Joe. They are true.

If Joe were alive today he would embrace Rod and chew you up and spit you out.

.

It's amazing how often apostates think they know the Church better then those who attend it, build it, and love it.

Shade's wonderful dichotomy attempts to rip the Church asunder along imaginary lines and pit us against each other. I have never seen this rift once in almost 30 years of attending Church.

[_Pokatator]

You are not only persecuting the saints but you also persecute Joseph Smith. He saw God you didn't. He translated you didn't. He spoke to an angel you didn't.

But now you and your whole profession is a sham of second guessing and back stabbing against Joe himself. You are putting new words into his mouth and retranslating them. You don't believe him so you change and interrupt his words. You don't sustain prophets you persecute them and their words.

Meldrum Mormons are the true Mormons. You are as phony as the pharisees in Jesus' day. Meldrumites believe Joe and follow. They sustain the prophets. But you have a degree and they have faith and belief in Joe. They are true.

If Joe were alive today he would embrace Rod and chew you up and spit you out.

It's amazing how often apostates think they know the Church better then those who attend it, build it, and love it.

Shade's wonderful dichotomy attempts to rip the Church asunder along imaginary lines and pit us against each other. I have never seen this rift once in almost 30 years of attending Church.

I attended the church 36 years which is more years than you are old. Hang on to your garmies.......Meldrum just may surprise you.

[_The Nehor]

I attended the church 36 years which is more years than you are old. Hang on to your garmies.......Meldrum just may surprise you.

You're under the impression I care what the prevailing consensus is about where the Book of Mormon took place. It's never been discussed in any Church meeting except in passing. Most LDS don't discuss it outside of Church.

I admit I don't like Meldrum's methods but if the mesoamerican theory of the Book of Mormon becomes fringe....who cares? I won't leave. If I didn't come to these boards I wouldn't even notice. FARMS may get a few less readers....so what? There isn't going to be some huge divide over this because most members could care less and those that do care don't care enough. The few that do care enough aren't going anywhere because until the Prophet or (more likely) Jesus explains exactly when and where it happened they can go on believing what they want. I think it's more likely that the Church will split over disagreements about the Primary Sacrament meeting then where the Book of Mormon happened.

[_harmony]

Elder Howard W. Hunter explained: “This proverbial expression of kicking against the pricks usually refers to the ox goad which was a piece of pointed iron stuck in the end of a stick used to urge the ox while drawing the plow. Sometimes a stubborn ox will kick back against the goad only to receive its sharpness more severely. It has become a proverb to signify the absurdity of rebelling against lawful authority.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1964, p. 108.)

Exactly. I'm the ox, Daniel is the ox goad, the stick that the ox kicks back against. And if I'm really lucky, I land a few.

And this is the scripture:

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

Seeing you quote scripture is worth the price of admission, marg.

The use of the word "pricks" in this case Harmony is the Church authority, the people in the church who speak for God.

In Elder Hunter's case, yes. In my case, no. Daniel acts in his capacity as an ox goad often when he engages in a discussion with me, and he's well aware that he does it.

That is NOT the context you used the word. You were NOT referring to DCP in the sense that he is representative of Church authority in a proper sense.

No duh. Geez, it took you that long to figure it out? The day I refer to Daniel as a "proper authority" in the church is the day I join you, marg. And that day is a long time coming.

I'm referring to him as the ox goad itself, the real stick that pokes the ox, not the metaphoric stick which the ox is supposedly rebelling against.

You most definitely whether you admit it or not, appreciate is or not...used "prick" in the vulgar sense.

No, I didn't. You may have, and Daniel may have after climbing up his Ladder of Inference, leaking his assumptions all over the board, but I'm on solid ground here. I'm the ox Pres Hunter referred to; Daniel's the ox goad... the stick that pokes the ox.

You didn't use it in the positive sense of authority that the scripture presents it as.

That's because I understood my place in Pres Hunter's example; you don't.

The authority "pricks" I'm using the word as a verb, that is the authority may hurt, but it is representative of what a God allegedly wants/requires.

I'm using the word as the noun Pres Hunter did... as the stick (Daniel) that goads the ox (me). My rebellion against church authority is outside this discussion. This one's between the ox and the real stick, not the ox and the metaphoric stick.

[_Yoda]

In other words, Daniel is an arrogant....stick!

[Guest]

OH.

MY.

GOSH.

Can't we all just get along!

For the record, harmony, I apologize for making false assumptions at the beginning of this post that I had no business making.

It is unbecoming for any member of the church... myself included... to wage an all-out assault on ANYONE, regardless of their beliefs, or what we might ASSUME their beliefs to be.

So, whoever assaulted who first, let's drop it already and move on.

Now we're discussing what the meaning of "kicking against the pricks" means?

COME ON.

Out.

[_harmony]

In other words, Daniel is an arrogant....stick!

With a sharp point on the end. Perhaps understanding my meaning is an exercise in farm terms.

My bad for not knowing that Daniel thought I was being sexual. I'd have straightened him out, forthwith, had I known.

[_harmony]

OH.

MY.

GOSH.

Can't we all just get along!

For the record, harmony, I apologize for making false assumptions at the beginning of this post that I had no business making.

It is unbecoming for any member of the church... myself included... to wage an all-out assault on ANYONE, regardless of their beliefs, or what we might ASSUME are their beliefs.

So, whoever assaulted who first, let's drop it already and move on.

Now we're discussing what the meaning of "kicking against the pricks" means?

COME ON.

Out.

Welcome to internet bulletin boards, Wayne. If you'd like, we can move the conversation that has transpired on your thread to another thread.

And I'd never call you a prick. You haven't been around long enough to have earned that label. Daniel and I have been sparring for 10 years or more. (I'm usually the one who gets kicked off the board, and he's usually the one who people are desperate to have stick around, so this board is unique... another reason I love Shades).

[_Daniel Peterson]

I also think it's silly to claim that I'm "persecuting the saints."

You are not only persecuting the saints but you also persecute Joseph Smith. He saw God you didn't. He translated you didn't. He spoke to an angel you didn't.

But now you and your whole profession is a sham of second guessing and back stabbing against Joe himself. You are putting new words into his mouth and retranslating them. You don't believe him so you change and interrupt his words. You don't sustain prophets you persecute them and their words.

Meldrum Mormons are the true Mormons. You are as phony as the pharisees in Jesus' day. Meldrumites believe Joe and follow. They sustain the prophets. But you have a degree and they have faith and belief in Joe. They are true.

If Joe were alive today he would embrace Rod and chew you up and spit you out.

Pokatator, I think what you've written above is nonsense, though I do love the image of you pretending to speak for Joseph Smith and to defend him against me, his enemy. That's good stuff. No question about it.

But I'm really curious: Can you write a post that isn't an attack on me? Seriously. Can you?

[_Daniel Peterson]

For the record:

I don't think Book of Mormon geography is a very important issue. I never discuss it in Church, never ask people what they think about it, have never inquired about it during an interview, don't raise the issue when extending calls, etc. And I've never heard of anybody who does.

That's just one of the reasons I find the Shades dichotomy silly.