Is this what you would tell Elizabeth Smart & her parents?

[_dblagent007]

I asked my wife about the better-dead-than-deflowered doctrine and, to my surprise, she completely agrees with it. In her view, she would rather fight to the death than let someone rape her.

I disagree with her on this issue, but I have to say that I really admire her warrior mentality. It's refreshing in these times where wimpiness is glorified (i.e., Obama) to hear that someone actually would fight an attacker to the death.

It is so sad to me to think that anyone is taught a doctrine that it is better to end your life than be raped. WOW... how sick is this? I don't get it. It sickens me that this would even enter the mind of a girl or woman.

She feels this way independent of anything anyone else has said, church leaders included. Or maybe you are saying that women can't make their own decisions about something like this. Women only believe what they are "taught." I can tell you that is not my wife.

Even worse is the sickening declaration that men would rather their wives and daughter be dead than raped. WOW... lots of love there! NOT!

Are you attributing this to me? If you got that from my post, you certainly didn't read it. I said I disagreed with her positon. In fact, I told her repeatedly that I would much rather have her around than dead.

The "warrior mentality" of a woman or girl thinking she should fight an attacker to the death is not something to celebrate, it is something enormously distressing and dangerous.

How about teaching a girl or woman to do whatever she can to survive. How about teaching girls and women that it is better to be alive than dead. How about teaching her how valuable her life is? How about LDS leaders telling girls and women that they would much rather have them alive to share their gifts with the world, than in a pine box.

How about teaching a little reading comprehension, to yourself. I said I disagreed with her position. She didn't care. She said she would fight. Just because another woman disagrees with your position of glorified wimpiness you have to go off on some rant.

OMG... this whole thing is so sick and primitive I can hardly believe we are even having such a discussion in this day and age.



OK, rant over!

~td~

Is it always sick and primitive to try and fight off an attacker, or only when it is a man against a woman, or a big man against a small woman. What if the man is kind of small and the woman is big, could she then fight (man has no weapons)? What about situations where the woman thinks she may not only be raped, but seriously injured, is she then justified to fight back? Is there no circumstance where a woman could fight? What about when a man attacks a man? If one is attacked, are we always obligated to roll over and play dead.

Your one-size-fits-all mentality is the problem. You can choose to do what you want when attacked just like my wife can choose to do what she wants. Get over it.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Is it always sick and primitive to try and fight off an attacker, or only when it is a man against a woman, or a big man against a small woman. What if the man was kind of small and the woman was big, could she then fight (man has no weapons)? What about situations where the woman thinks she may not only be raped, but seriously injured, is she then justified to fight back? Is there no circumstance where a woman could fight? What about when a man attacks a man? If one is attacked, are we always obligated to roll over and play dead.

Your one-size-fits-all mentality is the problem. You can choose to do what you want when attacked just like my wife can choose to do what she wants. Get over it.

Nobody thinks a woman shouldn't fight back. That's rediculous. I've never seen anyone argue that. The issue were discussing is the attitude taught by many church leaders that if a woman "survives" a rape, no matter how hard she fought, it obviously wasn't good enough. It would've been better if she had died before being raped.

There are two options for a woman when she is being raped. Fight off the rapist and win (he gives up and leaves, or he dies) or fight the rapist until he kills you before raping you. If you fail at options 1 or 2 and instead fight the rapist with all your might, but lose, and he rapes you, somehow it is your fault you were raped. This teaching is what so many people have a problem with. What if the man is simply too big and heavy and he pins the woman to the floor? What if he drugs her and she is incapacitated?

I am sure your wife is completely sincere that she will fight a rapist to her death, but whether she lives or dies is really up to the rapist, not her. What happens if the rapist allows her to live?

[_dblagent007]

I am sure your wife is completely sincere that she will fight a rapist to her death, but whether she lives or dies is really up to the rapist, not her. What happens if the rapist allows her to live?

Most likely she will be somewhat traumatized, but will move on with her life as best she can. Even if she successfully repels the rapist, I think the outcome will be the same.

I think those church leaders that taught better-dead-than-deflowered were wrong. However, I think that each woman can, and should, make up her own mind on this issue. A woman that chooses to fight shouldn't be condemned.

I would certainly rather have a living daughter, wife, etc. Nevertheless, if one of them chooses to fight, even to the death, I will respect and honor that decision.

[_The Nehor]

Nobody thinks a woman shouldn't fight back. That's ridiculous. I've never seen anyone argue that. The issue were discussing is the attitude taught by many church leaders that if a woman "survives" a rape, no matter how hard she fought, it obviously wasn't good enough. It would've been better if she had died before being raped.

That's not what was taught even back then.

[_truth dancer]

Hi D,

No, I was not speaking about you specifically. I was addressing the many men who teach and believe this sickening idea that a woman is better dead than raped.

I in no way suggested a woman should not attempt to fight off an attacker but the reality is in 99.99% of cases a woman or girl will not be able to. Why? Again, because rapists pick victims who they think they can rape. A rapist is not going to attack a woman or girl who he thinks can beat him in a fight.

Any woman or girl who survives a sexual assault did, in my opinion, the right thing because she survived and is alive.

Whether she fought with every ounce of strength or whether she remained still and silent so a knife would not cut her throat, she survived. The very fact she is alive is fabulous!

And, how dare you suggest a woman or girl who does not fight until her death exemplifies "glorified whimpiness".

~td~

[_cinepro]

Where was this crap imprinted upon her? Herein lies the evil.

She will never begin to fully recover until she discovers that her first impressions came from the same organization that attempts to heal her.

I don't think women need a Church to make them feel bad about being raped. While I have no evidence to back this up, I would guess that even atheist women might feel some negative feelings following an attack of that nature.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Nobody thinks a woman shouldn't fight back. That's ridiculous. I've never seen anyone argue that. The issue were discussing is the attitude taught by many church leaders that if a woman "survives" a rape, no matter how hard she fought, it obviously wasn't good enough. It would've been better if she had died before being raped.

That's not what was taught even back then.

How else do you interpret these quotes?

Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - better dead clean, than alive unclean.

‘I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.’

Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.

There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity (I know a lot of members who are not TRUE Latter Day Saints)

[_dblagent007]

Hi D,
And, how dare you suggest a woman or girl who does not fight until her death exemplifies "glorified whimpiness".~td~

Well, I made a mistake when I said that your position was "glorified wimpiness." After all, I think I share the same view as you that women should do whatever they think they need to do to survive.

The glorified wimpiness reference is meant to apply more to our current culture that seems to think nothing is worth fighting for, ever. That mentality seems to seep into everything.

I think survivability is the most important aspect in a rape situation, but I completely respect any woman that puts fighting back, even at undue risk to her life, above survival.

[_The Nehor]

How else do you interpret these quotes?

Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - better dead clean, than alive unclean.

‘I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.’

Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.

There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity (I know a lot of members who are not TRUE Latter Day Saints)

Yes, but elaboration on those quotes state that you should not yield unfought. If you do fight and fail they make it clear the victim is blameless.

[_The Nehor]

Change the situation a bit. Suppose someone you love is being raped in front of you. I would condemn myself if I didn't fight to stop it. I don't care if they have a weapon or if I die doing it. I think that would be a just condemnation. Remember that with this teaching came with a teaching to males that they should die to protect someone from such an assault. Some things are worth fighting for even if the odds are long or borderline impossible.