Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

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_Who Knows
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _Who Knows »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Another interesting thing about this remark is that it assumes that if the Book of Abraham's source were extant (which it is), its text would translate Egyptologically as the Book of Abraham (which it does not). The catalyst theory, in other words, does not even appear to be on the table for Gee.


What about the characters in Fac. 3? Gee's right - we DO have the papyrus (or a copy of it) from which those characters were translated, and I don't believe it.
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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Hi TD,

I was thinking specifically of FARMS Review readers, not the general membership. (OK, so the "all their lives" line was a bit overdramatic.)

Hi WK,

What was it that tipped you off? The blatantly wrong translations of deity names? The use of nonsensical, upside-down hieratic characters from another fragment to fill in lacunae? I'm sure all of these are just excuses to continue your life of sin!

-Chris
_KimberlyAnn
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

CaliforniaKid wrote:I'm sure that most of the apologists will move to that (or maybe to the mnemonic device theory) when the missing papyrus model is decisively falsified in academic publications (which I'm quite convinced is only a matter of time). But what I'm wondering is whether by insisting so strongly on this literal-translation missing papyrus model, the FARMS writers might be reinforcing fundamentalist assumptions in their readers. Will readers who have been raised and fed on missing papyrus all their lives feel betrayed when the theory is abandoned? Will all of them be able to easily make the transition, or will some fall away? And will Gee himself swallow his pride and make the transition? Or will he just fall silent or continue his ad hominems?


I was raised and fed on missing cinnamon rolls because my mom is diabetic.

But, no, I hadn't even heard of missing papyrus rolls until I began to have doubts and started researching. I was unaware of any Book of Abraham apologetics, and when I became aware, I wasn't satisfied at all. The more I read, the more betrayed I felt.

I posit that Mormons who buy the missing papyrus model would likely not feel betrayed by its abandonment, but would simply shift their allegiances to whatever theory was supported by Mormon apologists.

KA
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

I must admit that this essay by Gee really got my goat. His little swipes at "the critics" were both ill-informed and just plain petty, and had no place in a "scholarly" publication. Here is just a taste:

The smallest group, comprising about one half of one percent of Mormons-- according to my informal, admittedly unscientific surveys-- thinks that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the existing fragments that were in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. [...] Critics routinely assert that the Latter-day Saint position is the one that is actually the least popular of all. They want it to be our position because it is the most convenient straw man.


I have never seen a critic assert that it is the "Latter-day Saint position" that the Book of Abraham papyrus was translated from the extant fragments. Not only would the Church have to be stupid to hold such a position (since it's patently untrue), but the critics would have to be stupid to think the Church holds such a position (which of course is what Gee is trying to say-- that the critics are stupid).

The argument of the critics, rather, is that it is the historic position of Joseph Smith and his associates that the Book of Abraham was translated from the extant fragments. Gee's survey has no bearing on that question, and he knows it. Ironically, he has set up a straw man straw man.

The newspapers garbled the story by wrongly making Atiya the discoverer of the documents [...]


Actually, everything I've read suggests that it was Atiya himself who baldly lied to reporters about the papyri's discovery. In this he may well have been complicit with Hugh Nibley, who had known of the papyri's location for more than half a decade and who made Egyptologists like Klaus Baer and John Wilson promise not to tell. But by all means, blame the newspapers.

Critics want to minimize the amount of papyri originally owned by Joseph Smith, preferably to an amount not much more than what we currently have, because they do not want a Book of Abraham to have ever existed. As Richard Bushman has noted, "people who have broken away from Mormonism . . . have to justify their decision to leave. They cannot countenance evidence of divine inspiration in [Joseph Smith's] teachings without catching themselves in a disastrous error." So critics who have left the church cannot allow Joseph Smith to have gotten anything right, even as a guess or by accident. They will go to extreme lengths and propound convoluted theories to have something else, anything else, to believe in. The critic Dale Morgan, himself a defector, wrote in a moment of candor: "With my point of view on God, I am incapable of accepting the claims of Joseph Smith and the Mormons, be they however so convincing. If God does not exist, how can Joseph Smith's story have any possible validity? I will look everywhere for explanations except to the ONE explanation that is the position of the church." So the critics cannot allow themselves to say, as Latter-day Saints can say, "Whether or not there was a Book of Abraham actually contained on the portion of the papyri that did not survive is something that cannot be determined by scholarly means."

A Latter-day Saint who has faith, that is, trust in God, can examine such issues without being bothered or without having to know all the answers to all the questions we might have.


When I read this, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Clearly Gee is projecting. He cannot countenance the possibility that there was no Book of Abraham on Joseph Smith's papyri, so he will do or say anything to convince himself and others that there was. It is his theory that is convoluted. The last line reminds me of charity's remark that she knows Joseph Smith is a prophet, so she can be pretty open-minded.

Best,

-Chris
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

KimberlyAnn wrote:I was raised and fed on missing cinnamon rolls because my mom is diabetic.


LOL!

I posit that Mormons who buy the missing papyrus model would likely not feel betrayed by its abandonment, but would simply shift their allegiances to whatever theory was supported by Mormon apologists.


You may be right. From what I've seen, FARMS readers have almost as much loyalty to their apologists as early members did their prophets.

-Chris
_Enuma Elish
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _Enuma Elish »

Hello Chris,

Hope all is well in your life.

CaliforniaKid wrote:I don't "have a testimony" of anything, Brackite, but I certainly testify that you're absolutely right about that!

I'm sure that most of the apologists will move to that (or maybe to the mnemonic device theory) when the missing papyrus model is decisively falsified in academic publications (which I'm quite convinced is only a matter of time).


I suspect that most apologists will eventually move towards adopting Kevin Barney's J-Red theory before they will adopt a catalyst model.

Also, knowing John Gee personally and having spoken with him on many occasions, I suspect that John simply used the word "testify" as an effort to dramatize his certitude on the matter, rather than suggest some sort of spiritual testimony of the position.

Just my hunch.

all the best.
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_moksha
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Is Gee's idea official?

Post by _moksha »

Has the idea of the Prophet using the papyrus to channel the Book of Abraham been abandoned?


Is this idea of a Book of Abraham "Q" text, perhaps snatched away by an Angel to make our testimonies purer, been endorsed by any Church leaders? Would this suggest that the facsimiles from the existing papyri were placed there to confuse the Saints?

:question:
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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

David,

It's very good to see you here! How are things in your neck of the woods?

Enuma Elish wrote:Hope all is well in your life.


Aside from persistent unemployment, all is indeed quite well. :smile:

CaliforniaKid wrote:I suspect that most apologists will eventually move towards adopting Kevin Barney's J-Red theory before they will adopt a catalyst model.


Kevin's is not a comprehensive theory, and requires some other hypothesis to complete it. In his initial article on the subject, Kevin tacitly endorsed the missing papyrus theory as that other hypothesis. It may also be capable of marriage to a sort of catalyst theory, and I think Kevin probably presently leans in something like that direction, but the work hasn't been done yet. (My impression from my interactions with him has been that he isn't much fonder of the reigning Book of Abraham apologetic than I am.)

Also, knowing John Gee personally and having spoken with him on many occasions, I suspect that John simply used the word "testify" as an effort to dramatize his certitude on the matter, rather than suggest some sort of spiritual testimony of the position.


Thanks, that helps!

-Chris
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Is Gee's idea official?

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

moksha wrote:Would this suggest that the facsimiles from the existing papyri were placed there to confuse the Saints?


I think the idea is that the Book of Abraham was farther along in the Hor roll, perhaps situated after the Book of Breathings, so that the Facsimile vignettes were just misplaced on the roll, slightly out of alignment, or served to illustrate both texts.
_Gadianton
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Re: Does Gee Have a Testimony of the Missing Papyrus Theory?

Post by _Gadianton »

Hi Chris,

I think we should take Em's words under consideration, but ultimately, I do believe that Gee is bearing testimony here. Think of it this way, long before he ever studied Egyptology, he had a testimony of the Book of Abraham. Had he not, he would have laughed himself into a comma upon discovery of the Book of Abraham, don't you think? So, as a believer and an apologist, as one who should, as Em once put it on MAD, "shift the paradigm" however it needs to be shifted to keep the church true, Gee automatically has a testimony of that anything which would falsify the Book of Abraham is false.
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