Lying and dishonesty for The Church

[_JoetheClerk]

A number of years ago we lived in Sandy, Utah. One of the Stake leaders there at the time had been in Saudi Arabia working for Aramco for some time before this. He was the local LDS Leader in the area while in Saudi Arabia. Not sure of his title now but he did mention the leadership role often in his talks.

One thing in particular bothered me then and does still. It is his agreeing with the Saudi restrictions against LDS Proselyting while in country. He made the agreement as all did when in country. Then in his talks to us he told us how he would ignore their wishes and openly proselyte Saudis and imported workers. His reasoning was that lying about agreeing was doing Gods work and the ends justified the means. He spoke more than twice on it and stated the Saudis were really too dumb to catch on.(that I remember from two of his talks)

Who goes into an area giving his word he will not do something and then proceeds to do that very thing? Goes back to the old 'lying for the Lord' baloney in hiding the leaders from the authorities while preaching Honesty in dealing with people. A lesson both my wife and I refuse to teach in Primary, Young men/women and Priesthood lessons. Just can't live with teaching the kids that ethics are entirely situational.

I know this still goes on in many places. Like the missionaries in a friends area who are getting close to the High School kids by 'volunteering' as extra coaches at the small High School. They even accompany the team on road trips nearby all the while saying 'we are here to help', not 'we are here to teach The Gospel'. Very deceptive in my view. A lot like saying 'we won't proselyte' and then deliberately doing it in Saudi Arabia.

Fostering a culture of lying is wrong. More so when you keep insisting you have The Truth.

[_bcspace]

Could have got his head handed to him, literally. I personally do think the ends justify the means in many instances. I don't necessarily agree with this one.

[_quaker]

I hardly believe that the church, in any official capacity, encourages that type of behaviour in countries such as Saudi Arabia. If I'm not mistaken there is a lot of effort put into abiding by the rules of those countries.

And do you really think they would let the missionaries coach if they were harassing people about religion all the time? Obviously the players know they are missionaries and what they do, and obviously the missionaries hope that the people they coach might want to listen, someday. There is nothing dishonest about it. You probably get annoyed when the missionaries just do pure proselyting and shout that they ought to be helping out and providing service, right?

[_Daniel Peterson]

We are very serious about not proselytizing in the Arab world.

I know what I'm talking about on this.

[_Pokatator]

Fostering a culture of lying is wrong. More so when you keep insisting you have The Truth.

Kind of similar to telling the Jewish people many times, "we won't baptize your dead" then proceed to baptize their dead.

[_moksha]

I would lie if I were harboring Ann Franks in my attic. However that Lying for the Lord stuff sure sounds like one of those slippery slope situations where you may need to continually lie to cover up an initial lie.

[_Danna]

We are very serious about not proselytizing in the Arab world.

I know what I'm talking about on this.

could you please give us more detail on the policy? Why are Arabs not given the opportunity to experience the one true church? Given the discriptions of early persecution, why would persecution from Arabs be any different. Or does tCoJCoLDS support theocratic dictatorships as a matter of course. I have worked in the odd third-world country over the years, I never saw a Mormon missionary, although many denominations were usually represented among QuaNGOs. These groups were doing the hard-yards during nation-building. While I did not agree with religious activity, it invariably took a back seat to welfare, education, and social issues. In spite of reassurances from my family that tCoJCoLDS had a 'jet' equipped with emergency rations to fly into needy countries, I never saw that either. Of course, I never worked in an area that attracted a lot of media coverage.

[_ludwigm]

We are very serious about not proselytizing in the Arab world.

Officially.

I know what I'm talking about on this.

I have no doubt You know.
Would You inform us about the details?

...
Given the discriptions of early persecution, why would persecution from Arabs be any different.
...

They (the arabs, but I'd use the word moslems/muslims instead) are .. er .. um .. a little rude. They begin the discussion on a trial which ends at verdict of beheading.

[_TAK]

Fostering a culture of lying is wrong. More so when you keep insisting you have The Truth.

Kind of similar to telling the Jewish people many times, "we won't baptize your dead" then proceed to baptize their dead.

Or Mishys knocking on doors saying they want to talk about Jesus Christ but the message is reallly about Joesph Smith and his antics..

I would not rule out the possibility that this so called saudi LDS leader was just making crap up to impress is ward/stake..

[_Inconceivable]

One thing in particular bothered me then and does still. It is his agreeing with the Saudi restrictions against LDS Proselyting while in country. He made the agreement as all did when in country. Then in his talks to us he told us how he would ignore their wishes and openly proselyte Saudis and imported workers. His reasoning was that lying about agreeing was doing Gods work and the ends justified the means. He spoke more than twice on it and stated the Saudis were really too dumb to catch on.(that I remember from two of his talks)

In the 70's, our family had some good freinds that worked for oil companies in Saudi Arabia. At the time, even any non Islam religeous book was banned in that country. Prostyliting was forbidden. As I recall, each were required to agree to these terms before being granted a work visa.

Even though they were paid well, some of them believed that it was God that was opening the doors of the gospel to that nation through them. We heard the same stories Joe is talking about - Contraban books of Mormon, lesson manuals, prostyliting to citizens as well as to the international workers. As a youngster I just assumed the ends justified the means.

I seriously doubt anything has changed much. Guaranteed, if the Saudi authorities rifled through a Mormon's belongings, they would find everything they needed to expell the infidels.