The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

[_Pokatator]

Gaz, do you have any gays or mixed marriages or other skeletons in your family closet that you would like to rant about?

I have to tell you your comments on this thread leave me aghast. You have some serious myopia problems not seeing that mote in your own eye.

Try a little tenderness or anything other than what you are using, because it ain't workin' for ya man.

[_Yoda]

Its not about being self righteous. Its about striving for Camelot to succeed, and encouraging others to not let their passions destroy our dreams.

Gaz, you and I have spoken about this situation before. It is true that if a person does not want to help him/herself, then that person can, unfortunately, be lost in that addiction. It sounds like that is the case with your sister, and that she has unfortunately hurt many people along the way.

I understand that you and your extended family, after giving her many opportunities, may feel that you don't have anything more to give...and that..for the good of her children, you really can't give her money, etc., because she will only spend it to feed her addiction.

I understand the "tough love" nature of this.

Unfortunately, it seems like the love part of that equation has become lost along the way.

No, I don't think that you should be placating your sister, or coddling her, if she refuses to go through some type of rehab program and get the help she needs.

At the same time....she is still your sister. Referring to her in derogatory terms, such as "crackwhore", is, I believe, unacceptable.

It's one thing to say, "I can't help my sister because she refuses to help herself."

It's quite another to completely disrespect her, and refer to her in derogatory terms. She is still your sister. She is still your family.

My prayers are with you and your family. I hope that someday your sister may realize what she has lost, and seek help......and I hope...that if and when that day happens.....her family will be there for her.....just like the Prodigal's son's father was there for him.

[_Roger Morrison]

GAZ, thanks for your candor, Bro. I'm on my way to "Kitchen Duty" for the next couple of hours, but I'll get back to you...after some thinkin'...
Roger
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[_harmony]

My mothers tears will stand as a witness against her on her day of judgement,as well as the testimonies of her own children.

You are required to love your sister, Gaz. Required. You don't get to blow off anyone, let alone a family member. You can distance yourself from her, physically, but emotionally, you are commanded to love her. If you don't, if what you feel in your heart is really hate and not disappointment, resentment, frustration, unrighteous judgment... well, those have nothing to do with her and are things you might want to work on.

Even crack whores will have their exaltation. Christ died for her sins also, and even the unrepentent will eventually be assigned a kingdom. She has her agency, and just because she doesn't use hers the same way you use yours doesn't mean you are free to hate her.

Practical matters: never give her money. Help her children directly. Petition the court to have her declared an unfit mother and gain custody of the children. Encourage her to enter rehab. Let her know the door is open, and that you love her, but you won't allow her to taint your life or the lives of your children and family. If she cleans up, warily accept her back, with conditions. If she regresses, put the conditions back up.

If you don't do what you can to help her, you have failed as a Saint.

I suspect there may be something in that "near perfect household" you don't know about.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Gaz,

I see it, I just don't agree with your conclusion in regards to your statement.

Your lack of response to my points suggest you are either unable or unwilling to grasp the idea.

The current number of Christians as of a 1997 count numbered 1,900,000,000. That is not counting Jewish and other faiths who share a belief in the Holy Ghost. I'm in good company when you lump that number in with the ancient believers who followed the prophets.

YOUR particular version of the HG is unique to the LDS church.

True. How do you define truth in relation to God? What is it exactly that you believe?

Doesn't matter at all. I do not claim to know ultimate reality or the totality of divine truth.

I wrote:

OMG Gaz! You think you are the only one who listens? Can you see how arrogant this is?

Gaz responds: Mat. 7:29 [For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.]

What does this have to do with the idea that you believe you are the only one who listens? The very suggestion is the height of arrogance Gaz.

I wrote:

To be honest, I think those who rigidly hold to their beliefs, who hold elitist views, who must continue to to hold their beliefs at all costs, who can't allow for deeper understanding, expanded awareness, and a more enlightened world view are the ones who don't listen.

Gaz replies:

Im always ready and willing to learn. You have yet to share anything other than a desire to love others, which lesson I have taken to heart and am working on.

I will challenge your statement that you are always ready and willing to learn. I don't think this is accurate. You are always ready and willing to learn that which supports your belief system which you will not allow to be challenged.

You are taking to heart the lesson to love others and still have such cruel and nasty stuff to say about your sister? Seriously?

Gaz, with all due respect, your rant about your sister is proof that the LDS church is not working for you.

Anyone who can hold those sorts of feeling toward another is seriously not getting the teachings of Jesus Christ, or any other inspired teacher for that matter.

To be honest I am rather shocked at the degree of hatred you hold in your heart and in a way it helps explain your attitudes and opinions.

My heart goes out to your family.

~td~

[_Roger Morrison]

Gaz, since you chose not to go PM, I will address your comments with my candor as well. Some of which you might think offensive and insensitive. I hope not too much so... It is not intended to be either...

[quote="Gazelam" said, (Roger's in this...

My sister is evil. She has constantly sought since childhood to surround herself with misery and drama, this despite in every case someone being there to tell her not to do this or that.Some kids by their Nature resist Nurturing that doesn't/won't adapt to a child who differs from other sibs. Parents are then challenged to adapt their parenting skills to the childs needs. Some do better at that than do others... She was brought up in the best enviorment, with parents who worked hard and loved one another and loved her. It appears to have not impressed your sister in that way... She stole my parents car at 14, I think I was 15 at the time I did that. But had the good fortune of not getting caught... hung out with the worst friends, "...birds of a feather flocking together???" I flew with a few crows found a hoodlum for a boyfriend and husband There's where my luck changed. I had the perfect role model in my Mother & I KNEW I would never find my life partner (57 years ago) where I was funning...I have to ask (since you have taken this public) what did her male role models exemplify--to her? Not to you...... She went through cars and homes that my parents co-signed for, traded some of the vehicles given to her for drugs, locked the kids out to sleep in the driveway so she could do drugs and party, slept with strangers for their drugs...
Sounds to be a very sad environment for everyone...i

I know at some point God will require me to forgive her, I don't think that is the case at all. However, for your own well being and that of those close to you, I think it essential that you forgive Her & Yourself. "God's" joy is not dependent on what you, me or anyone else does. But WE depend on what WE do for our joy, peace etc... but at this point I savor the thought of her rotting in hell for all eternity.That's understanable. If I was in your place with your nature&nurture I'd feel the same... I can only weep for her poor children who have had to live through all of this. I do too. And for the millions of others in the same circumstances... They all hate her and can't wait to get away from her, and cry when they have to leave my parents to go back to her house. That too is understandable. They might be lucky to have that safe harbour. Then again if 4 out of 5 from that nest seem to be agonizing... Who knows???

My sister is innactive because she is the spawn of Satan. Was she adopted? Or were you? My brother#1 joined the marines after high school and is an atheist. His wife is extremely liberal and has no faith. Are they happy? Bro #2 served half a mission then had a falling out with his mission president and Bishop. (Both priesthood leaders were in the wrong) He just never got over it. His wife has expressed a genuine interest in coming to church and he forbid it. A let-down for sure. How were PH leaders dealt with?? Another male chauvinist in your family;-)?Bro# 3 got married to a girl who has trouble shaping her faith and hes horribly whipped when it comes to her. Serious issues there in regards to being her little puppet. She doesn't conform to your faith-base?? Bro. 4 is stil young and is drifting. He has yet to establish a solid testimony. Maybe he has already? Just not yours?? Hes married to a girl who I don't believe understands the concept of modesty. (Also does not understand that clothes have weight limits and after a certain size should not be worn) "God" sees us all naked in every activity and position we as humans engage in. Begs the question: Why does "modesty" and "clothes" mean so much to you, me and others (in our culture)??

What is "mild encouragement?"

Parents make sure prayers are said at family dinners. Gaz, that hasn't seemed to have worked as you expect(ed). Possibly if/when you have the malcontents at home, drop the prayer ritual in their honour/respect. Dinner prayer can be nice. Then again they may be more disengaging... Remember, they're not for "God's" bennefit; they're for human's, if they think they are. Otherwise?? Invite them to church activities. Don't. Invite, or join them in anything other than church. Unless, that is, they eagerly accept church invites.. Take grandkids to church. When they want to go. Right? Encourage religious activities.. Are there other than "religious activities" in your family that they might enjoy??? etc..[/quote]

Gaz, the best of luck with your family challenges. Respectfully Bro, none of these issues are in "God's" hands... They are completely in human hands that are attached to a person more charitable than I would be in your case. I hope that's you...
Roger
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[_Jersey Girl]

Hi Gaz,

Well now....;-) Your comments drew a whole ton of replies, that's for sure. First off, you're not a "self righteous prick" and you should ignore less than constructive comments such as that. You're a guy who doesn't understand why his sister does the things she does, has seen her hurt people and compromise her own kids. You're pissed as hell at her bs and the only truth is that any human being would be outrageously pissed off, were they in your shoes.


Who the heck understands this kind of stuff? I'm telling you, the best shrinks in the world couldn't help her unless and until she felt compelled to help herself. People can tell you what you "should" feel and what you're supposed to feel or do according to your religion til they're blue in the face (or keyboard as it were) and until they've walked the mile in your shoes, they're in no position to criticize.

Having said that, what can be done for the children?

[_Gazelam]

Pokatator,

Gaz, do you have any gays or mixed marriages or other skeletons in your family closet that you would like to rant about?

Hurm... nope, that's about all I care to discuss. I have some extended family that has a few issues, but I don't feel a need to delve into that.

[_Gazelam]

Liz,
Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

At the same time....she is still your sister. Referring to her in derogatory terms, such as "crackwhore", is, I believe, unacceptable.

It wasn't a derogatory term, it was a definitive one.

Ill take your other comments under advisement.

[_moksha]

Gaz, it seems rather significant when believers and nonbelievers suggest you should have more charity in your heart. Could the members of this forum help in any way?