the latest buzz on the Blacks

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_Nomomo
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Re: Direct revelation

Post by _Nomomo »

The Nehor wrote:
Nomomo wrote:
dung ~
n : fecal matter of animals [syn: droppings, muck]

Curelom ~
n : Name for animal which never existed which was made up by Joseph Smith. (found referenced to in the work of fiction The Book of Mormon)

Does this help clear things up for ya. I think you've grasped the concept now.

Of course you already know what Cumom urine is. So we can skip that lesson and move on.


Yes, but does being full Curelom dung imply a certain texture or composition to the dung?

I see what you mean now. I left out the word "of" as in "full of". I may have to take your thread about me in the Telestial forum a little more seriously now. :rolleyes:
The Universe is stranger than we can imagine.
_Nomomo
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _Nomomo »

cinepro wrote:I guess someone would have to explain to me how 19th century church members were totally capable of accepting priesthood-holding Chinese, Mexicans, Indians, Japanese, Irish, and any other stripe of humanity, but singled out blacks uniquely for their nonacceptance.

It should also be noted that even if "The Church" (meaning "the members of the Church") in the 1800's weren't ready for blacks to have the priesthood, it would only take 2 generations max for that feeling to change. You aren't born with attitudes like that; you learn them. So if Church members of 5 or 6 generations maintained such racism and kept the priesthood ban for so long, it is only because they were actively passing those attitudes on from generation to generation.

If Brigham Young stood at the pulpit and said "Brothers and Sisters, I know some of you feel like the negro does not deserve all the blessings of the priesthood, but this is not Christ-like, and such an idea should have no seed in the Church of God.", he could have started the process of changing attitudes right then, and within a generation or two, the only people who wanted to maintain the racist ban would be those who brought their racist ideas with them when converted to the Church, or were taught such ideas by their parents against the stated policy of the Church.
Reasoned observations.
The idea "the Church wasn't ready for it so God initiated and maintained the ban for 100+ years" really needs to die, because it makes God and His followers look silly.
This could be considered by some to be a good thing, Them looking silly that is. by the way, miss your remarks at MAAD. What little time I fritter away there.
The Universe is stranger than we can imagine.
_JoetheClerk
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _JoetheClerk »

If you really want to know about Blacks and the LDS Church you will look up the stuff put out by Ezra Taft Benson. They are all Communist dupes. That is why Brigham and the boys were inspired to keep them out, to keep the church from the taint of Communism, Martin Luther King and his buddies.
_moksha
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Re: Direct revelation

Post by _moksha »

The Nehor wrote:
Yes, but does being full Curelom dung imply a certain texture or composition to the dung?


It has a soggier consistency and generally a fuller and more organic aroma. The domestically raised Curelom/Alpaca mixed dung has been found by Mormon horticulturists as potentially suggesting semitic influence.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_cinepro
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _cinepro »

why me wrote:But we need to remember that the LDS church was quite radical for its time, especially in Missouri which was a slave state.


Slavery was legal in the Utah territory as well, so perhaps they left their radicalism back in Missouri?

Nomomo wrote: by the way, miss your remarks at MAAD. What little time I fritter away there.


Thanks. I miss my remarks there too.
_Seven
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _Seven »

"Jason Bourne"


Joseph Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood.


Not exactly. Isn't there only one? Joseph Smith gave Elijah Able the Priesthood because he was 7/8 white. I am not aware of any full blooded black man that was given the priesthood by Joseph Smith.

http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/chorg2.htm
(for a very interesting read on the problems the church ran into with identifying who had a drop of negro blood in them)

Council Meeting - June 4, 1879

President [John] Taylor drew attention to the subject of negroes receiving the priesthood, which matter was canvassed at the last meeting of the Council and by his directions the following statements were read:
. . .
Brother Abel, in the name of Jesus, I lay my hands upon they [thy] head to bless thee, and thou shalt be blessed even forever. I seal upon thee a father's blessing, because thou art an orphan, for thy father hath never done his duty toward thee, but the Lord hath had his eye upon thee, and brought thee through straits, and thou hast come to be reckoned with the saints of the Most High. Thou hast been ordained an Elder and annointed to secure thee against the power of the destroyer. Thou shalt see His power in laying waste the nations, and the wicked slaying the wicked, while blood shall run down the streets like water, and thy heart shall weep over their calamities. Angels shall visit thee, and thou shalt receive comfort. They shall call thee blessed, and deliver thee from thine enemies. They shall break thy bands and keep thee from affliction. They [Thy] name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Thou shalt travel in the East, and visit foreign countries, speak in all the various tongues, and thou shalt be able to teach different languages. Thou shall see all kingdoms, and confound the wisdom of this generation. Thy life shall be preserved to a good old age. Thou must seek first the kingdom of heaven and all blessings shall be added thereto. Thou shalt be made equal to thy brethren, and thy soul be white in eternity and thy robes glittering: thou shalt receive these blessings because of the covenants of thy fathers. Thou shalt save thy thousands, do much good, and receive all the power that thou needest to accomplish thy mission. These and all the blessings which thou canst desire in righteousness, I seal upon thee, in the name of Jesus. Amen. W.A. Cowdery, Assistant Recorder. (From page 88, Joseph Smith's Patriarchal Blessing Record)

[Meeting of May 31, 1879 was revised and included in these minutes.]
Brother Joseph F. Smith said he thought Brother [Zebedee] Coltrin's memory was incorrect as to Brother Abel being dropped from the quorum of Seventies, to which he belonged, as Brother Abel has in his possession, (which also he had shown Brother J.F.S. [Joseph F. Smith]) his certificate as a Seventy, given to him in 1841, and signed by Elder Joseph Young, Sen., and A.P. Rockwood, and still later one given in this city. Brother Abel's account of the persons who washed and annointed him in the Kirtland Temple also disagreed with the statement of Brother Coltrin, whilst he stated that Brother Coltrin ordained him a Seventy. Brother Abel also states that the Prophet Joseph [Smith] told him he was entitled to the priesthood, (Brother Abel is understood to be an octeroon [octoroon]).
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/octoroon



"Jason Bourne"

It seem the ban may have come from BY.



It looks like it came from Joseph Smith:

1947 First Presidency letter to Dr. Lowry Nelson

Lowry Nelson[1], a professor at what was called the Utah State Agricultural College in Logan, Utah, sent a letter on June 16, 1947, to the LDS First Presidency challenging the position of the LDS Church on people of African descent. On 17 July of the same year, the First Presidency replied[2]:

Dear Brother Nelson:

As you have been advised, your letter of June 16 was received in due course . . . We have carefully considered [its] content; and are glad to advise you as follows:

We make this initial remark: the social side of the Restored Gospel is only an incident of it; it is not the end thereof.

The basic element of your ideas and concepts seems to be that all God's children stand in equal positions before Him in all things. Your knowledge of the Gospel will indicate to you that this is contrary to the very fundamentals of God's dealings with Israel dating from the time of His promise to Abraham regarding Abraham's seed and their position vis-a-vis God Himself. Indeed, some of God's children were assinged to superior positions before the world was formed.

We are aware that some Higher Critics do not accept this, but the Church does. Your position seems to lose sight of the revelations of the Lord touching the pre-existence of our spirits, the rebellion in heaven, and the doctrines that our birth into this life and the advantages under which we may be born, have a religionship in the life heretofore.

From the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith
even until now, it is has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel.

Furthermore, your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and White races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient partiarchs till now. God's rule for Israel, His Chosen People, has been endogamous [meaning 'marriage within a specific tribe or similar social unit']. Modern Israel has been similarly directed.

We are not unmindful of the fact that there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this are, toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.

Faithfully yours,

[signed]

George Albert Smith
J. Reuben Clark, Jr.
David O. McKay

The First Presidency

Lowry's reply (October 8, 1947) included:

The attitude of the Church in regard to the Negro makes me very sad. I do not believe God is a racist.

The First Presidency replied[3]:

We feel very sure that you are aware of the doctrines of the Church. They are either true or not true. Our testimony is that they are true. Under these circumstances we may not permit ourselves to be too much impressed by the reasonings of men, however well founded they may seem to be. We should like to say this to you in all sincerity, that you are too fine a man to permit yourself to be led off from the principles of the Gospel by worldly learning.

You have too much of a potentiality for doing good and we therefore prayerfully hope that you can re-orient your thinking and bring it in line with the revealed Word of God.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_floatingboy
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _floatingboy »

where to start? interesting letter there from the 1st presidency. from what i recall from the reports of the apostles regarding the 1978 revelation, they more or less say that it was god's will that it should be that way, or that it was just the right time. something to that effect. this would seem to imply that god was waiting for society to progress, or if not that, then there was something on earth that was pending which had finally arrived. if this is so, then any claims that god viewed blacks as being eternally unworthy of the full blessings of the gospel (because of some pre-life infraction/disobedience) would be rendered meaningless. either they always were worthy or they never would be.

looking at that kind of claim a little more closely, it seems to me that the idea that someone's behavior before they even left their first estate would disqualify them for exaltation not only makes god a respecter of persons, but flies in the face of the atonement of Jesus Christ. if you had already assured your own failure by disobedience in premortal life, what point would there be in coming to this second estate? (supposedly, for blacks, it would be to aspire to be a servant in the celestial kingdom, as mark e. peterson claimed - http://www.mormonismi.net/mep1954/00.html).

in that letter from the 1st presidency to brother nelson, they say "Indeed, some of God's children were assigned to superior positions before the world was formed. " were they right at that point in time and then later became wrong once the ban was lifted (seeing as how blacks now enjoy the full blessings of the gospel)? or did they simply misunderstand or even misrepresent the notion of foreordination? that god may have had certain callings in mind for certain people (one a prophet, another a primary teacher, another never hearing of Jesus Christ at all during his/her life) is completely plausible. but that cannot be extended to mean that all are not entitled to the same salvation. from the lowest of the low to the highest of the high, all are entitled to the same thing: all that the father hath. or no? or did god always assure this to all his children, and it was just the leadership of the church "from the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith even until now" that refused to let go of the racism of the ages and thereby imposed their mind onto the mind of god?

i'm getting long-winded, but to close i also would like to muse about the similar tone of the church's previous stance on race and its current one on homosexuality. i'm sure they were every bit as opposed to equality of the races then as they are to homosexuality now, but look what happened. however, i have to say that i have a hard time seeing them ever cave on homosexuality. any thoughts on this?
-"I was gonna say something but I forgot what it was."
-"Well, it must not have been very important or you wouldn't've forgotten it!"
-"Oh, I remember. I'm radioactive."
_solomarineris
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _solomarineris »

Jason Bourne wrote:I
My come back has been similar to TDs comments and that is one would think God would tell his prophets to be on the cutting edge of society rather than the back end. Yet I have a good friend that is convinced that God will not interfere with things like this and if cultural norms prevent things like blacks having the priesthood God will stay his hand till the time is right.


I just love your logic, Jason.
"God will stay his hand till the time is right."
If most of us were capable believe this kind of convenient fallacy we'd stay in
our faith.
I call it as such because nobody can halfway decently demonstrate any supernatural
interference anytime so we can cast our doubts away.
I am not making fun of your faith, I'm just saying; It ain't so.
"As I say, it never ceases to amaze me how gullible some of our Church members are"
Harold B. Lee, "Admonitions for the Priesthood of God", Ensign, Jan 1973
_Droopy
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _Droopy »

My husband came home from work last week with the latest buzz on why Blacks were denied the priesthood for so long: it was society's fault. Society back then (1830's) wasn't ready to accept a church where people with black skin were allowed to join as equal members with those with white skin.

No word yet on why it took over 100 years after the Civil War for that to change, or why women are still denied the priesthood.

More on this as updates occur.


Scratch's "informants" are now working for you too?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: the latest buzz on the Blacks

Post by _Droopy »

If you really want to know about Blacks and the LDS Church you will look up the stuff put out by Ezra Taft Benson. They are all Communist dupes. That is why Brigham and the boys were inspired to keep them out, to keep the church from the taint of Communism, Martin Luther King and his buddies.



What grade are you in Joe?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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