Our newest member, Wayneman: Shades' missionary companion??

[_Nightingale]

...if Ray can be a Bishop, Ray who admits to using prostitutes, who admits to drinking beer while he posts on the Net for his main entertainment in life, the same Ray who isn't the sharpest tool in the shed then it is apparent that anyone , strike that, any man with questionable morals and mental reasoning ability can be a Bishop. And women in the church look up to these guys?

Whoa. I think there is a very high likelihood that any activities such as you describe were done after Ray left the Mormon Church or at least after he was no longer an LDS bishop. I also think that it is not SOP for "any man with questionable morals" to be selected to act as a Mormon bishop. It should go without saying that "women in the church" would not en masse "look up to" men with questionable morals, whatever one determines that to be.

...although you complain you still buy into it and accept the rules and culture you complain about.

Just to give some perspective on this, most humans likely buy into and accept the culture into which they are born and will even complain about things within it. My heritage lies in a country with a long history of harsh imperialism. While I don't appreciate that history I don't renounce the culture of my birth. While I do think that origins are important, especially of organizations, to me it's more important to assess the current situation and the planned future direction, in most instances.

The nevermos in the crowd often stand out as they're the ones who casually toss off the notion that Mormons should "just leave" their heritage and culture. If one turns that around and applies it to their own environment, heritage, culture, it is easily seen to not be the first impulse most people have. Would you renounce your US citizenship if you didn't like the current president? Would you leave your country if you didn't agree with its foreign policy? Leaving a faith that is also a heritage/culture is no small feat, especially when there are negative family ramifications on top of all the other losses. While it wasn't right for me, who wasn't Mormon by birth, to stay in Mormonism once I had no belief or hope left within it, I can't expect all people born into it to leave it altogether when they have questions or portions of it with which they may disagree or just not like too much.

It boils down to you being stuck in a culture you don't like, complaining ..yet all the while no one is forcing you to stay or accept any of it.

Same comments as above really, in that just by accident of birth it is highly likely that one will continue to embrace the culture into which they are born and raised. Not all members, even those with doubts or questions or disagreements, see things the way other members do, or ex-members or never-members. Our reality is not their reality. While it seems to make sense to outsiders to "just leave" that misses the point of a faith and a culture being intertwined. Also, there is the point that people born-in view things differently than do converts (who tend to focus on doctrine perhaps much more than BICs do). Thus, what may really bother a convert or a nevermo may not even blip on the radar screen of the BIC. It's just the way it works. To say that I don't like this and that and therefore all members know those issues and should feel the same and react as I do about them is quite a one-dimensional view.

in my opinion anyone with high integrity once they know the history of the church, once they appreciate it was man created and fraudulent with tales of angels no one has observed except by con artists, golden plates no one observed except by con artists, reformed egyptian which never existed, history which is a complete lie, a strong liklihood that a dead man's manuscript was the key catalyst to the man written Book of Mormon pawned off as scripture... should do something about it by not subjecting themselves to or being supportive. But then again you may not be able to see your way out, or you may not have the high personal integrity it would take to walk away.

I'm not sure I've seen harmony make any or all of these statements, if that is what your point is here. (Once again my disclaimer is that I don't read every single post here so I could be wrong about some of my conclusions based on that). Even so, again with the nevermo take on it (which is understandable but not definitive). It's not really up to non-members to say what members "should" do (as in leave because of doctrinal issues with which we or even the member may disagree).

Regarding "personal integrity", again, is it our call to state categorically what that is for every church member? In theory, I would hope that people would live what they believe. As far as personal integrity goes, I generally focus on what that looks like for me. I think we can certainly opine about integrity in general and what that looks like to us but criticizing another person's level of integrity, especially when we don't know them personally, seems a bit presumptuous to me.

I think there is a lot that never-members of various faiths do not and will never understand and that should go some way towards restraining our expectations of what other people should or should not do. (Exceptions are cases of egregious breaches of basic human values, etc, in my view).

[_The Nehor]

I know I'm on the right track, if you're siding against me, Nehor. Thanks for the confirmation!

No problem, I'll consider reinforcing your mental delusions my messing with someone's mind for the day. I do admit that it seems to me though that there is some moral ambiguity about doing it to someone in as messed up a mental place as you sometimes seem to be. Then I see something shiny and forget about all that.

[_Ray A]

Whoa. I think there is a very high likelihood that any activities such as you describe were done after Ray left the Mormon Church or at least after he was no longer an LDS bishop. I also think that it is not SOP for "any man with questionable morals" to be selected to act as a Mormon bishop. It should go without saying that "women in the church" would not en masse "look up to" men with questionable morals, whatever one determines that to be.

This actually has quite a bit of "history". Yes, I revealed on ZLMB that a prostitute lived with me for two weeks in 2001. But, as I said then, and will say again, I considered her more than "a prostitute" (or a "crackwhore"). And if you really must know the awful truth, we had sex ONCE during that two weeks. I did then, and still do now, consider her a friend. What really concerns me now is that I have not seen her in public for over two years, don't know where she lives, and I seriously fear she may have died from a drug overdose. I actually tried to get her out of prostitution, because as I said then, and will say again, we both believed that we were "soulmates". We had an extraordinary "spiritual connection". Unfortunately, she became schizophrenic, from taking too much marijuana and other hard drugs. If I could have taken away from that, maybe the "impossible dream" might have materialised, in spite of our age difference. When I first met her, we both asked, "have we met before?" It was almost uncanny.

Marg, unfortunately, is now resorting to innuendo and character assassination, revealing things I told her by private email, part of which was that I have long ceased this "past-time" (which she didn't mention). She completely ignored that, because she is desperate to score points. I live alone, am happy with my life - and avoid women altogether. I could also tell you something about marg's private life, but I'll refrain. That would be going down to her gutter level. She really is cutting a pathetic and desperate figure here now.

And to answer your point, Nightingale, no, as a bishop and member of the Church I never participated in any of these "activities".

(Moderator Note) Your reference to Moniker's situation has been edited based on situations which happened in PM and chat, and were handled as privately as possible by me, personally, as the chief moderator handling that particular issue. If you have any questions concerning that particular issue, please PM me. Liz

In any case, I am not ashamed of my association with women I admired as human beings, and didn't just use them for their bodies. I would not disown any of them in public, and would be happy to say they are a friend of mine. I love them as human beings, and for their intellect and intelligence. I've really only been involved intimately with two, absolutely gorgeous women, either of whom I could have spent the rest of my life with, if they were willing. But it was not to be.

Tomorrow I will attend my son's 30th birthday, and my work, and my children, is where my life is now centred. Bonking isn't the be all and end all, and at 54 morning glory is more like afternoon glory. Better to rise late, than not at all.

And lastly, I find it strange, since I've never broken up a marriage, and have a strict policy of never "coming on" to married women, even when such women have made advances to me in the past, that I would in any way be inferior to a man who stole other men's wives and deliberately broke up marriages, "in the name of God". That's the man Gaz worships. Yet he calls his own sister a "crackwhore".

[_marg]

Marg, unfortunately, is now resorting to innuendo and character assassination, revealing things I told her by private email, part of which was that I have long ceased this "past-time" (which she didn't mention).

I've revealed nothing about private emails. I wouldn't do that. Your comments about prostitution were made on this board. Your comments about beer drinking and posting, for entertainment purposes have been made on this board.

[_Ray A]

I've revealed nothing about private emails. I wouldn't do that. Your comments about prostitution were made on this board. Your comments about beer drinking and posting, for entertainment purposes have been made on this board.

Your post suggest that I still "use prostitutes". That isn't true. And if it was, I would not deny it. Any more than I'd deny beer drinking. I still drink lots of beer, and enjoy it. I'll even admit to PUI (posting under the influence). In fact, I'm now on my seventh beer. So what? Do you never get drunk and post? (Think here, now)

And really, I am here largely here for entertainment, but intellectual stimulation here is getting very, very rare, which is why I've been posting elsewhere. Not that I'd condone censorship or anything, but the level of interesting discourse here seems to have dropped considerably. That's something no rules or moderation can control.

[_marg]

I could also tell you something about marg's private life, but I'll refrain. That would be going down to her gutter level. She really is cutting a pathetic and desperate figure here now.

Talk about using inuendo's in an attempt to smear someone. You have talked about using prostitutes and your attitude about that on this board, I didn't use any innuendos from some email.

My comments are about you decision making skills, your reasoning ability. You simply are not someone who I think should be in a position of giving advice to groups of people you are in charge to do so in that official capacity by an organization. Because of you poor reasoning ability you lack good judgement at times.

Now what is it I said in email that you'd like to share. My husband's disinterest in and low sex drive from the time we married? That was an acknowledgement not a complaint, and we now have worked things out,which I pointed out. I"ve mentioned this on this board a number of times, I've mentioned it on 2 think. It's one of the reasons I can understand from a male's perspective what it's like, if they are in that situation. So what exactly do you wish to share? Go ahead.

That's the sort of person you are like Ray. I remember you doing something like that on Shades first board. You threatened on the board to post a pm we had and you did but only a portion. I had the whole pm, and I either posted it or explained the context of the whole pm. You are an underhanded slime bucket Ray. Really you are.

So go ahead, I'm not the least bit concerned that anything I said to you is gutter worthy.

[_Ray A]

That's the sort of person you are like Ray. I remember you doing something like that on Shades first board. You threatened on the board to post a pm we had and you did but only a portion. I had the whole pm, and I either posted it or explained the context of the whole pm. You are an underhanded slime bucket Ray. Really you are.

Thankfully, I don't need your assessments to determine the sort of person I am. Lots of people in real life can assess my character far better, including my children, who know my real life situation 100 times better than you.

None of this came through your emails, in fact quite the contrary, so I will guess that it's your dumping as a moderator that has your knickers in a knot.

[_TAK]

Will somebody please lock this stupid ass thread down.. sheesh!

[_Ray A]

Will somebody please lock this stupid ass thread down.. sheesh!

I totally agree. I really think the discussions I've been having elsewhere are far more profitable. I tried to drop this ages ago.

[_marg]

None of this came through your emails, in fact quite the contrary, so I will guess that it's your dumping as a moderator that has your knickers in a knot.

To think that a church puts people like you in positions of authority over others, is telling of the flaws and weakness in the system. What standard of care did they use in choosing you?