Are all religions cults? OP actually started by Liz

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Yoda

Re: Our newest member, Wayneman: Shades' missionary companion??

Post by _Yoda »

harmony wrote:
liz3564 wrote:I suppose that if this is the definition that Marg is referring to, then, yes, Mormonism would be considered a cult, but so would ALL other religions.


marg has a very narrow definition of any word she uses: it is as she says it is. Anything else is not acceptable. Cult... prick... marg's definition is the only acceptable definition. It's just the way it is.


Marg seems to have a very negative view of religion, in general, so maybe this is the definition she has in mind. I suppose we'll have to wait until she comes back from partying to find out. :wink:
_Yoda

Are all religions cults?

Post by _Yoda »

Harmony, Marg, DCP, Jersey Girl, and I began discussing cults and religions as kind of an offshoot of the Wayneman thread. I am going to merge some of the comments from that other thread over here.

I think it could generate interesting discussion.

There is a definite stigma attached to the word, "cult", but when you look at the definition, it really applies to most religions.

Since Mormonism has been referred to as a cult by several on this board, I think that continued thoughts might be interesting.
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _Gadianton »

Great point, Liz. There is a narrow, technical definition for the word cult that would seem to pretty much apply to any religion, especially though if that religion existed a couple thousand years ago. There is also a highly loaded use of the term which defines any religion that bears the title evil and terrible. Maybe we should have long arguments with Mormons to convince them they are being unreasonable by objecting to the label on account of definition a) while behind the scenes high-fiving each other over definition b)?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Yoda

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _Yoda »

Gad wrote:Maybe we should have long arguments with Mormons to convince them they are being unreasonable by objecting to the label on account of definition a) while behind the scenes high-fiving each other over definition b)?


I find it interesting that the first listed definition, or definition a, for what a cult is, is the more benign definition, which most mainstream religions would fall into.

I suppose my point is....where should the line be drawn between what is acceptable "cult-like" behavior, and what is not? And, who has the right to make that determination?
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _truth dancer »

Cult = new religion

Religion = old cult


:smile:

In regards to garments, I considered them my "Abrahamic test". LOL!

They were not difficult for me to put away at all. I celebrated actually.

It was symbolic of no longer having to conform to a belief system that didn't feel holy to me. It felt so peaceful and honest to let go of that which seemed in a way to thwart a sense of authenticity and diminish or inhibit my spiritual journey.

It is difficult to explain but it was as if garments represented being part of an elite club with all the secrets and specialness that went along with it. It never felt comfortable (or "right"), to me. In fact it wore on my heart and spirit. Hardly a day would go by that I didn't feel conflicted wondering how God could possibly require such a thing.

I totally get the idea of symbolic clothing or a concrete representation of a promise. In fact I am all about personal ritual and symbolism to create a meaningful life. This is not a problem at all for me.

Anyway, I know my experience may not be representative of others.

And, yes, I do think we all do what we can to create the best life possible, and yes, I think we are manipulated in all sorts of ways.

:-)

Nice topic Jersey Girl,

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Jersey Girl,

Another thought that came to me some time ago relating to this topic is this: Regarding our beliefs and behaviors, I see this more as a spectrum, complete brainwashing on one end and total freedom on the other.

On one end of the spectrum a person would be completely indoctrinated, controlled, brainwashed with extreme use of fear, completely immersed in a culture, restricted from knowing information, praised for obedience, rewarded for conformity, etc. etc.

On the other end of the spectrum a person is free to chose, explore, question, doubt, wonder, challenge while facing no fear (in this life or the next) on their quest. There would be no need to conform to authority but praise for their unique journey.

I see all religions, cults, belief systems on this spectrum with most in the middle somewhere. The FLDS for example, on a scale of 1-10 (ten being the extreme of control), might be a nine while Buddhism might be a two. I would place Mormonism probably around a seven?

In other words, it is not all black and white but all sorts of shades of gray.
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

What is this thread about? I didn't start it. If this is a split from another thread (which it is) would someone PLEASE indicate that on the subject line?

This looks as if I started a new topic thread and I definitely didn't.

I don't understand this at all. I don't like it.

Edit: I tried to change the OP title but I can't. I guess I have to live with it. Sorry for the knee jerk reaction.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _harmony »

Jersey Girl wrote:What is this thread about? I didn't start it. If this is a split from another thread (which it is) would someone PLEASE indicate that on the subject line?

This looks as if I started a new topic thread and I definitely didn't.

I don't understand this at all. I don't like it.

Edit: I tried to change the OP title but I can't. I guess I have to live with it. Sorry for the knee jerk reaction.


Well.... it is such a ... *cough*.... little knee.

Welcome to your thread, Jersey! (you overslept, and look what happened! Liz took your great idea of yesterday --did you have another one we could use too?-- and made it into its own thread! Wow! Such Goddess-like power!) That'll teach ya to have great ideas.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _Chap »

It seems that some people are concerned about the use of the term 'cult' without a definition of the word having been given in advance 'so we know what the word means'.

But it is not the case that all thoughtful and intelligent people - or even eminent philosophers - have always agreed that one needs a definition of a word (such as 'cult') in order to use it sensibly, and to reflect usefully on one's employment of that term:

65. Here we come up against the great question that lies behind all these considerations.-For someone might object against me: "You take the easy way out! You talk about all sorts of language-games, but have nowhere said what the essence of a language-game, and hence of language, is: what is common to all these activities, and what makes them into language or parts of language. So you let yourself off the very part of the investigation that once gave you yourself most headache, the part about the general form of propositions and of language."

And this is true.-Instead of producing something common to all that we call language, I am saying that these phenomena have no one thing in common which makes us use the same word for all,-but that they are related to one another in many different ways. And it is because of this relationship, or these relationships, that we call them all "language". I will try to explain this.

66. Consider for example the proceedings that we call "games". I mean board-games, card-games, ball-games, Olympic games, and so on. What is common to them all? -- Don't say: "There must be something common, or they would not be called 'games' "-but look and see whether there is anything common to all. -- For if you look at them you will not see something that is common to all, but similarities, relationships, and a whole series of them at that. To repeat: don't think, but look! – .

Look for example at board-games, with their multifarious relationships.

Now pass to card-games; here you find many correspondences with the first group, but many common features drop out, and others appear.

When we pass next to ball-games, much that is common is retained, but much is lost.-- Are they all 'amusing'? Compare chess with noughts and crosses. Or is there always winning and losing, or competition between players? Think of patience. In ball games there is winning and losing; but when a child throws his ball at the wall and catches it again, this feature has disappeared. Look at the parts played by skill and luck; and at the difference between skill in chess and skill in tennis.

Think now of games like ring-a-ring-a-roses; here is the element of amusement, but how many other characteristic features have disappeared! sometimes similarities of detail.

And we can go through the many, many other groups of games in the same way; can see how similarities crop up and disappear.

And the result of this examination is: we see a complicated network of similarities overlapping and cries-crossing: sometimes overall similarities.

67. I can think of no better expression to characterize these similarities than "family resemblances"; for the various resemblances between members of a family: build, features, colour of eyes, gait, temperament, etc. etc. overlap and cries-cross in the same way.-And I shall say: 'games' form a family.


Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations.

http://users.rcn.com/rathbone/lw65-69c.htm

If one felt like following Wittgenstein's advice in the case of the word 'cult' (and whether you do or not is entirely up to you), you might simply ask whether (say) the Unification Church, The Church of Scientology, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have enough 'family resemblance' to make them worth thinking of as a special 'cult' group inside the larger family grouping that might include Episcopalianism, Zen Buddhism, and Greek Orthodox Christianity. No advance definition of 'cult' would then be required for the discussion to proceed.

My purpose in citing Wittgenstein is not to demand that definitions be dispensed with on his authority - board members can read his lucid and unpretentious phrasing and see if they agree with it without knowing anything about Wittgenstein's place in the history of philosophy. It is simply to say that it may not be essential to have a formal definition of a word before we can use it, and that this may perhaps apply to the word 'cult'.
_Yoda

Re: Are all religions cults?

Post by _Yoda »

Jersey Girl wrote:What is this thread about? I didn't start it. If this is a split from another thread (which it is) would someone PLEASE indicate that on the subject line?

This looks as if I started a new topic thread and I definitely didn't.

I don't understand this at all. I don't like it.

Edit: I tried to change the OP title but I can't. I guess I have to live with it. Sorry for the knee jerk reaction.


Sorry, Jersey Girl. :sad:

I split the topic. The Wayneman thread was so crazy, I wanted to keep all of the topics on religion and cults in one thread. This was actually my OP. Unfortunately, when I made the split, it moved your merged comments to the top post. I can't seem to figure out how to fix it, so until I do, I'm afraid your merged post will appear at the top.

It does look like we have generate an interesting discussion, though, which was something you wanted to see happen. :wink:

Edited to add---I was at least able to fix the title, Jersey Girl.

I referenced the split here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8519&p=224533#p224533

Sorry for the confusion.
Post Reply