Are all religions cults? OP actually started by Liz

[_Jason Bourne]

I have no problem recognizing cults exist outside of religious organizations. The reason I used the word cult in the discussion as applied to Mormonism was because we were discussing Bishop's questioning of member's private sex lives

As noted on another thread Marg had no actual reference to this nor what in entails nor the idea of confessional in the realm on a person of faith's repentance process. So here analysis lacks information which makes it accurate or even close to coming to a rational conclusion.

However I will say were I on the outside as a skeptic, athiest or what have you I most likely would view this as does Marg. That said, when a bishop oversteps the realm of reasonableness in this area I would agree that it ends up being a control issue.

(which I take issue with as I think they are employing thought reform techniques in order to manipulate and control)and obedience to church authority such that church authority dictates supercede the individual's own critical thinking on that dictate

If indeed you are correct most bishops are not aware that they are employing such thought reform techniques.

..as an example the Mormon garments. So although an individual may critically think wearing the underwear is ridiculous, or uncomfortable,

Actually FYI Mormon garments are quite comfortable. When I got a Dr I were regualre underwear or boxer shorts and find myself rather uncomfortable.

or not what they would do on their own volition, they relinguish their own decision making over to the Church authority and are obedient.

Most LDS who were garments are quite wiling and happy to do so. As noted on the other thread they view them as a reminder of something that is very important to them in their spiritual life and by daily putting them on their mind is called up to matters of faith and spirituality. Some may do it under protest and yes there is pressure for them to comply from mostly feelings of guilt if they don't comply. But most are quite fine with it.

[_Jersey Girl]

What is this thread about? I didn't start it. If this is a split from another thread (which it is) would someone PLEASE indicate that on the subject line?

This looks as if I started a new topic thread and I definitely didn't.

I don't understand this at all. I don't like it.

Edit: I tried to change the OP title but I can't. I guess I have to live with it. Sorry for the knee jerk reaction.

Sorry, Jersey Girl.

I split the topic. The Wayneman thread was so crazy, I wanted to keep all of the topics on religion and cults in one thread. This was actually my OP. Unfortunately, when I made the split, it moved your merged comments to the top post. I can't seem to figure out how to fix it, so until I do, I'm afraid your merged post will appear at the top.

It does look like we have generate an interesting discussion, though, which was something you wanted to see happen.

Edited to add---I was at least able to fix the title, Jersey Girl.

I referenced the split here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8519&p=224533#p224533

Sorry for the confusion.

It's alright. I just saw it and knowing that I didn't start the thread, I wondered what the heck happened with no mod stamp or what have you.

I wouldn't have minded appearing to be the OP however, I myself, would have defined the term "cult" straight up. There are multiple definitions/meanings for the word "cult" and unless terms are defined the discussion is bound to go all over the place since posters are coming at it from a definition of their choice. Too much misunderstanding when that happens.

Whe marg used the phrase "cult like", I think she's thinking in terms of mind control, financial control something on the order of FLDS though in this case, probably not that extreme type of isolation of the group. I replied to her based on my own mind reading of her intent.

When I use the word "cult" in reference to Mormonism, I typically use the phrases "Christian cult" or "Cult of Christianity" because I think that's the only phrase that truly defines Mormonism in a religious context.

I don't think I'll participate further on the thread. Been there, done that and I need to take a step back now and then.

Stepping back,
Jersey Girl

[_marg]

Ok just to clear up definition of cult and how I intended it...I used the word and applied it to Mormonism in the context of the discussion at the time. Two things were being discussed, Bishops questioning members about their private sex lives and Mormons who reach a particular high level within the organization being told by Church authority to wear particular Mormon garment underwear ...essentially 24/7. in my opinion these are thought reform tactics of an organization. Cults to my knowledge all employ thought reform tactics. I brought up Robert Lifton's 8 characteristics of thought reform from his 1963 book. All organization which employ thought reform tactics are not cults, at least I don't think so. I was in looking into behavior modification school programs of the sort GoodK was sent to, and that was when I became aware of Lifton's thought reform list, which behavior modification schools appear to use. Some might consider these behavior modification schools cults.

As far as being further specific what I meant by cult I'd gladly discuss with anyone except Daniel, for the simple reason I've agreed with him to not discuss with him. I personally don't find him to be a serious interlocuter, as he more often than not resorts to rhetorical put downs/ad hom rather than addressing issues in an intellectually honest manner.

I definitely do think the Mormon church is a cult. I think cults as far as how cultish they are fall within a spectrum. Mormonism in my opinion is pretty high up on the spectrum but obviously it doesn't physically isolate people which in my opinion would be a characteristic of the highest level of an organization being a cult.

To me it's not a matter of a cult is good or bad. Essentially a cult has an authority which manipulates and control a group of people in order to feed the growth and stability of an organization. Companies can employ cultish behaviors to strengthen the company ultimately for financial reward. My husband worked most of his life for such a company and appreciated their techniques to some extent and acknowledge it was a cult.

What seems to be happening with people who belong to religious organizations which outsiders call cults is that they don't wish to accept that label. They appreciate I guess that the label cult applied to their religious organization implies they as members have given up critical thinking in liew of their organization's authority over particular matter. And that is what I do see Mormons doing. But as well I do see the Church from the top down heirarchy deliberately employing techniques to control and manipulate followers, in order for authority to supercede the critical thinking of individual followers on various matters.

I personally don't need to define cult, there are websites which go into detail the typical characteristics one would find in a religious cult. So rather than spend personal time I'll use the work of others who have already set it up. Determining where on the spectrum a religious group falls is I think of greater interest that determining whether or not a religous group can be considered a cult. Sure I think all religious groups can be considered cults. But some organizations are weak in their tactics, some are extreme and some fall in between and they differs as to their expectations from members.

[_bcspace]

Yes. All religions are cults.

[_marg]

It seems to me that this web page IDENTIFYING A CULT gives a good discussion on definition of cult in particular as it pertains to a religious organization.

When I look through the discussion on definition I see lots applicable to the Mormon church.



In the summary at the bottom the writer notes.

SUMMARY

Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to
some degree.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Jason,

Most LDS who were garments are quite wiling and happy to do so.

Doesn't mean they want to or like wearing them.

As noted on the other thread they view them as a reminder of something that is very important to them in their spiritual life and by daily putting them on their mind is called up to matters of faith and spirituality. Some may do it under protest and yes there is pressure for them to comply from mostly feelings of guilt if they don't comply. But most are quite fine with it.

I would challenge this. (smile)

I think if garments were truly optional you would see very few women wear them. Perhaps older women and those who are more fundamentalist might continue, but over time garments would virtually disappear, (unless of course there was some sort of elitism associated with the continual wearing of them).

One more thing, while garments may be comfortable for men, and I do know some women like them, for me (and numerous other women I know), they were extremely, totally, unbelievably uncomfortable and irritating.

~td~

[_marg]

I also dislike the negative judgmental attitudes that some Mormons possess, and often call them on it.

At a basic level it's part of the system. It's why the Church claims to exist. It claims to be chosen by a God. How could an individual not pick up from that system how they as individuals are morally superior to all others outside the system? Inessence it's part of the church training program. By following various rules and being obedient, wearing the garments, going on a mission, not drinking caffeine & alcohol, getting married and having kids, not being homosexual, accepting callings, those sorts of things an individual in the Mormon system equates to having good moral values.

[_harmony]

Here's my post from the other thread:

. I find that attitude is so pervasive with Mormons, based on my observations of discussions on the Net.

You mean the only Mormons you "know" are the ones on the internet? Ummm... marg, there are 13 million Mormons. You might want to meet some of the ones who inhabit your own part of the world before you judge all of us by the various sides that are represented on the internet.

I disagree with the indoctrination process employed by many religions which start from an early age.

So, you disagree with allowing parent to teach their children the values they cherish. Yeah, that's gotta bite, when no one listens to you.

I disagree with lies perpetrated by religions, in Mormonism's case that the Book of Mormon is historical, that it is sacred, that somehow a supreme entity had its hand in its making.

Gee, no one acknowledges that you're a superior being, far above all the rest of us mere mortals. Sucks to be you, I agree.

I don't agree with religious organizations getting involved politically, in getting involved with suppressing the scientific educational programs in schools.

I've had 8 kids in the public school system, I have a daughter who teaches in the public school system, and I have yet to see any church with enough power to suppress or even influence the scientific curriculum. Granted, I live in a liberal state, and maybe in the deep South there's that kind of influence, but I don't see it as pervasive across the country.

So those are some examples of what I take issue with, but having a belief in a supreme entity per se I have no negative thoughts of. It's the belief in a God which interferes with mankind and favors particular groups, and how that influences people's attitudes I might take issue with.

You think it's okay to believe in God, so long as he doesn't interfere with mankind or play favorites?

Mormons are very much manipulated and controlled by their authority, believe in lies perpetrated by the Church, that sort of thing I take issue with.

Well, geez, are you an equal opportunity authority hater? Because Catholics (at least believing Catholics) bow to authority much more than we poor Mormons do. At least we don't have to attend daily Mass.

[_Ray A]

It seems to me that this web page IDENTIFYING A CULT gives a good discussion on definition of cult in particular as it pertains to a religious organization.

Jan Groenveld was a self-proclaimed "expert" who held no formal degrees, like Steve Hassan, for example, who did. She was also a Mormon at one time, which explains why this particular "identfier" fits with Mormonism so well. (That doesn't mean to say she doesn't make good points in some things)

Louise Samways, who is a qualified psychologist, takes a more holistic approach. Her website. And her book Dangerous Persuaders:An expose of Gurus, Cults and Personal Development Courses and How They Operate, is downloadable (but will probably be boring as there's nothing about Mormonism in it; I've read it; just as there's nothing about Mormonism in Steve Hassan's Combatting Cult Mind Control either)

[_harmony]

I also dislike the negative judgmental attitudes that some Mormons possess, and often call them on it.

At a basic level it's part of the system. It's why the Church claims to exist. It claims to be chosen by a God. How could an individual not pick up from that system how they as individuals are morally superior to all others outside the system? Inessence it's part of the church training program. By following various rules and being obedient, wearing the garments, going on a mission, not drinking caffeine & alcohol, getting married and having kids, not being homosexual, accepting callings, those sorts of things an individual in the Mormon system equates to having good moral values.

So you don't think those things are examples of good moral values? You left out things like staying chaste until marriage, giving service, time, talents and money to the building up of the Kingdom, taking care of the widows and orphans, helping out in times of disaster.

I suspect we have a different ideas of what "good moral values" are, marg. Just a suspicion. Nothing I can put my finger on.