If Joseph 'saw the words in English'

[_Daniel Peterson]

As always, I happily defer to people who understand my viewpoint far better than I ever will.

[_Chap]

As always, I happily defer to people who understand my viewpoint far better than I ever will.

I hope DCP won't do anything so misguided as to let others decide what he really thinks.

Of course if he wants to indicate to us that the words he is recorded as uttering on the PBS transcript, in particular these

It's kind of a strange image for us today, but it sort of makes sense if you think of a computer screen, I suppose: You don't want to be looking at [anything] against a bright background; it hurts your eyes. ... He would read off what he saw in the stone, apparently in passages of about 25 to 35 words. ...

do not represent what he wanted to convey when he spoke, that would be fine. We all slip up sometimes.

[_harmony]

I wonder if our leaders, the Brethren, have any understanding of just how stupid this makes us look? Or are they blissfully unaware of the contradictions, changing stories, misrepresentation, and downright lies associated with this? Or do they just take everything Joseph ever said at face value?... Would they cut everyone else... or anyone else. that same amount of slack?

[_The Dude]

Or do they just take everything Joseph ever said at face value?... Would they cut everyone else... or anyone else. that same amount of slack?

I would venture to guess that Jesus Christ and his apostles would get as much slack as Joseph Smith.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Of course if he wants to indicate to us that the words he is recorded as uttering on the PBS transcript, in particular these

It's kind of a strange image for us today, but it sort of makes sense if you think of a computer screen, I suppose: You don't want to be looking at [anything] against a bright background; it hurts your eyes. ... He would read off what he saw in the stone, apparently in passages of about 25 to 35 words. ...

do not represent what he wanted to convey when he spoke, that would be fine. We all slip up sometimes.

There was no slip-up. I was talking about the exclusion of ambient light, which makes it easier to read from a computer screen and presumably, by analogy, also from the seer stone -- which, if the accounts are accurate, seems to have functioned something like a computer display (e.g., with illuminated letters) in terms of visibility.

I didn't say that the seer stone and/or Urim and Thummim functioned altogether in the manner of a computer. Beware the fallacy of the perfect analogy.

As I commented at the beginning of this thread, I don't know how the translation process functioned. I don't believe that anybody really does or ever did who has not experienced it personally. Joseph pointedly declined to answer questions about the process. But I do not believe that it functioned mechanically, the way a computer puts out data. My computer doesn't care what mood I'm in, whether I've had a fight with my wife, or anything of that sort. Joseph, however, was unable to translate after a quarrel with Emma until he had reconciled with her. That suggests to me a degree of subjective involvement or interaction in a process that was anything but automatic and mechanical.

To repeat: I don't know how the process worked. Which is why I'm skeptical of confident claims that the process excludes human foibles, makes amgibuity impossible, was verbally inerrant, etc. I simply can't affirm such statements. There is no firm basis to say that they're true, and there is at least some basis for saying that they're false.

[_cinepro]

To repeat: I don't know how the process worked. Which is why I'm skeptical of confident claims that the process excludes human foibles, makes amgibuity impossible, was verbally inerrant, etc. I simply can't affirm such statements. There is no firm basis to say that they're true, and there is at least some basis for saying that they're false.

I'm confused now. Do you or do you not believe that Joseph read English words off the stone ("...in passages of 25 to 35 words")?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I'm confused now. Do you or do you not believe that Joseph read English words off the stone ("...in passages of 25 to 35 words")?

This really isn't very difficult.

If reports are to be believed, Joseph read English words off the stone in passages of 25 to 35 words.

I can't explain the process by which those words appeared.

I'm reading English words off of my computer screen right now.

I'm neither an electrical engineer nor a computer scientist, and I can't explain in much detail how the process works by which those words appeared.

However, whereas I'm reasonably sure that my emotional state doesn't affect the appearance of words on my computer screen, Joseph's emotional state appears to have affected the appearance of words on or in the seer stone.

[_Mister Scratch]

However, whereas I'm reasonably sure that my emotional state doesn't affect the appearance of words on my computer screen, Joseph's emotional state appears to have affected the appearance of words on or in the seer stone.

Do you believe it affected whether or not words like "horse," "cumom," and "curelom" appeared in the stone?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Do you believe it affected whether or not words like "horse," "cumom," and "curelom" appeared in the stone?

Very possibly.

[_Mister Scratch]

Do you believe it affected whether or not words like "horse," "cumom," and "curelom" appeared in the stone?

Very possibly.

Well, then, it would appear that JoetheClerk's OP has some merit. When Joseph Smith dictated "steel" he must have meant "steel." When he dictated "horse," he must have meant horse.

Right?