Fake Book of Mormon Geography -- holes in the script

[Shulem]

This is the place where we will build the temple after the manner of Solomon's in Jerusalem.

Everyone, take break and then it's time to work.

No murmuring!



Nephi and his family fleeing

[kairos]

Nephi: Son of a bitch I think we should build a bowling alley first-the Liahona is just bowling ball size and besides it gets us lost more than helps- who would have ever thunk (note 16th century english word) it. i think after the voyage, the Liahona rusted out and we had no wd-40.

k

[Shulem]

Book of Mormon defender NEPHICODE shares his thoughts in a recent article in excusing the claims made by Nephi in the Book of Mormon by softening the quantity of work required and turning Nephi's temple into a much smaller project. I'm not saying that Nephi's structure has to be the exact same size and certainly didn't have the same precious materials as was had in Israel, but the claim in the Book of Mormon is that it was made after the manner of Solomon's temple -- exceedingly fine construction, and that necessitates the use of stone blocks for the foundation and the structure itself. This, in and of itself, is out of reach of what the first Nephites could have accomplished so early on after their first migration in seeking independence from their Lamanite brethren.

Many critics and even members question the ability of the early Nephites having the time and manpower to build a temple like unto Solomon’s Temple.

The ragtag Nephite family did not have the time and didn't possess the tools in quantity or have the manpower to execute that kind of construction project fulltime while maintaining their regular lives just to survive.

Some critics of the Church claim that Nephi’s temple was built "similar in splendor" to Solomon's Temple, directly contradicting Nephi's description. Nephi stated that "could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple" because many of the precious things contained in Solomon's temple "were not to be found upon the land." Therefore, Nephi himself confirms that his temple was not "similar in splendor" to Solomon's temple. This is a good example of the critics reading the text in the most naïve, most ill-informed way possible

No, it was not similar in splendor. It did not have fir, gold, and other precious materials that were used to furnish and adorn Solomon's temple. But it did have similar construction and was after the manner of the temple of Solomon being labeled as exceedingly fine, hence, the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon.

One should also consider that smaller population would not have needed a massive complex like the temple at Jerusalem anyway. This, by the way, should suggest that Nephi’s temple was not as large and not as massive of a complex, for it would not have been needed.

I agree. The Nephites couldn't have produced the extensive grounds of the temple mount in moving that much earth and building walls of giant hewn stone would require thousands of workers. What Nephi focused on was the actual temple itself, not the complex! So, I'm not going on about the complex or the mount itself. The temple construction, in and of itself, is an enormous edifice that could never be built by a ragtag family with hungry mouths to feed.

On the other hand, the Nephite temple was like Solomon’s temple in its function for religious activity, obviously having a “holy of holies”

Nobody is talking about the function or rituals held within the Nephite temple. You're trying to get away from Nephi's original claim that the temple was like Solomon's temple because it was constructed in like manner, a lofty house of hewn stone! That, in and of itself, disqualifies Nephi's family in constructing such an edifice. They didn't have the time or means to build a multistory stone building upon a stone foundation. Never mind the cedar! Never mind the gold! It's the stones that make Smith's story an impossible situation.

[Shulem]

This is from a talk given by the Assistant Church Historian in General Conference of October 1923:

Solomon's temple was only a small building measuring about 90 feet in length and 30 feet in width and height. Hence, it was not larger than many of our meetinghouses.

But look:

The temple was built of hewn stone and set upon a stone foundation:

Next permit me to draw your attention to the Nephites who occupied the land of America. A certain statement made by Nephi and recorded in the Book of Mormon, has caused some criticism or discussion. The Nephites had been in America only a short time, and we estimate that there could not have been more than 300 souls of them altogether at the time that Nephi wrote the following:

STOP! Shut your Goddamn mouth, you retarded fool -- you dumb ass General Authority! The historical record can't baby-boom 300 people in Nephi's camp after fleeing his brethren. It's been established by the numbers in the book that Mr. & Mrs Nephi and kids, Mr. & Mr's Sam and kids, Mr. & Mrs. Zoram and kids, perhaps Nephi's sisters, and young brothers Jacob & Joseph, and a few more stragglers at most, were with Nephi when he fled from the face of Laman. That's it! Perhaps fat-ass poppa Ishmael and his bloody wife (bless her heart) went along too but their daughters and sons favored Laman -- they loved to party (on the ship) and didn't especially like Nephi later on.

In the end, Nephi ran off with a small band of adults at his side with children and more children on the way. It was a nursery in the making! But not "300 souls" when Nephi made his next log entry some 20 years later to report on all his happenings.

Jenson then quotes Nephi in the Book of Mormon wherein he claimed to build a temple after the manner of the temple of Solomon and then has the audacity to say:

Many of you brethren who are comfortably fixed financially, could, single handed, build a temple like Solomon's temple with your own means. You might be obliged to follow the example of Nephi in not furnishing the building with so much silver and gold or so many precious things as did Solomon,

No, no, and no! Preparing the foundation and setting stone and building the multilayered structure far exceeds the price of rich Mormons living in Utah. The building was built to the highest standards of construction and quality in shaping and preparing the hewn stone to perfectly set and build a spectacular building. Solomon's temple was a masterpiece and its construction was world class in itself. Forget the gold, forget all the riches -- the construction of the base building, in and of itself, was a masterpiece fit for a god and a king!!

but I venture to say that it was quite possible for a small number of Nephites to erect a temple as large as that erected by Solomon, omitting the costly ornamentations.

You sir, are a 1920's dumb ass with your Mormon foot in your mouth and poop for brains! It's impossible for a small group of ragtag runaways to erect a world class stone structure as large as Solomon's using the same type of construction and workmanship as the thousands of men who built the foundation and walls of Solomon's temple.

You dumb ass!

[Shulem]

It's not my problem that Smith failed to understood the enormous undertaking of the Jews in building Solomon's temple. Obviously, when Smith dictated his story it went way over his head and didn't fathom the true scope and magnitude of the biblical temple. Nephi's temple couldn't possibly commensurate in any degree with the biblical version in any shape or form. What was Smith thinking? Was he familiar with the biblical account about how the structure was built of hewn stone or was he simply thinking the house consisted only of timber brought from Lebanon such as cedar and fir, and forgot about the hewn stone? Smith did note that Nephi's temple was not built of so many precious things because they were not to be found upon the land, which is quite understandable. It makes me wonder if Smith figured they used cheaper timber for lumber that was available in their neck of the woods and was negligent in remembering the stone.

Had Smith realized the enormous work in hewing stone and understood the gravity of its use, he might have been less inclined to have Nephi construct a building after the manner of the temple of Solomon. But as it reads in Nephi's account, the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon, a stone building. The Book of Mormon was written prior to Smith taking up a serious study of the Bible and tendering his new translations. It's entirely possible that Smith overlooked the stone completely!

What does the Bible say?

15 And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains

17 And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.

18 And Solomon's builders and Hiram's builders did hew them, and the stonesquarers: so they prepared timber and stones to build the house.

7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

9 All these were of costly stones, according to the measures of hewed stones, sawed with saws, within and without, even from the foundation unto the coping, and so on the outside toward the great court.

10 And the foundation was of costly stones, even great stones, stones of ten cubits, and stones of eight cubits.

11 And above were costly stones, after the measures of hewed stones, and cedars.

12 And the great court round about was with three rows of hewed stones, and a row of cedar beams, both for the inner court of the house of the Lord, and for the porch of the house.

The bottom line: Stone is stone and it has to be cut and hewn no matter what kind of stone it is or where it is quarried. That is an enormous undertaking in any degree and could not have been accomplished by Nephi's clansmen.

[huckelberry]

It's not my problem that Smith failed to understood the enormous undertaking of the Jews in building Solomon's temple. Obviously, when Smith dictated his story it went way over his head and didn't fathom the true scope and magnitude of the biblical temple. Nephi's temple couldn't possibly commensurate in any degree with the biblical version in any shape or form. What was Smith thinking? Was he familiar with the biblical account about how the structure was built of hewn stone or was he simply thinking the house consisted only of timber brought from Lebanon such as cedar and fir, and forgot about the hewn stone? .............

What does the Bible say?

15 And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains

.............

Shulem, you have presented you case clearly.I think there are a lot of problems with this time period in the Book of Mormon. If I were a believer I would think the fallowing. The wording about the relationship of Nephi and Solomons temples is from an editor(Mormon or Moroni) who was completely ignorant of the material construction and size of either of these temples. The actual Nephi temple would have been built with wood poles and thatch upon an earthen foundation.

[Shulem]

Shulem, you have presented you case clearly.I think there are a lot of problems with this time period in the Book of Mormon. If I were a believer I would think the fallowing. The wording about the relationship of Nephi and Solomons temples is from an editor(Mormon or Moroni) who was completely ignorant of the material construction and size of either of these temples. The actual Nephi temple would have been built with wood poles and thatch upon an earthen foundation.

It would be a believable story had Nephi mentioned building a temple constructed in the form and material you mentioned above. But according to the beginning of the story, Nephi was from Jerusalem, and must have made pilgrimages to the temple as a young man. He would have been familiar with the stone structure but far less familiar with the interior because that was a secure area and restricted.

It's hard to imagine Nephi's words being edited by Mormon or Moroni when he's speaking in the first person repeatedly throughout his writings:

"This is according to the account of Nephi; or in other words, I, Nephi, wrote this record."

14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple

[Shulem]

I would like to present an expert witness to clarify the wording given by Nephi about building Solomon's temple. I consider this expert to be final and authoritative in defining exactly what Nephi meant. But first, let's quote Nephi, yet again for reference.

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did CONSTRUCT IT AFTER THE MANNER of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the MANNER OF THE CONSTRUCTION WAS LIKE UNTO the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Now, I present my expert witness, none other than the man himself, the true author of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith:

If there was anything great or good in the world, it came from God. The construction of the first vessel was given to Noah, by revelation. The design of the ark was given by God, “a pattern of heavenly things.” The learning of the Egyptians, and their knowledge of astronomy was no doubt taught them by Abraham and Joseph, as their records testify, who received it from the Lord. The art of working in brass, silver, gold, and precious stones, was taught by revelation, in the wilderness. The architectural designs of the Temple at Jerusalem, together with its ornaments and beauty, were given of God. Wisdom to govern the house of Israel was given to Solomon, and the Judges of Israel; and if he had always been their king, and they subject to his mandate, and obedient to his laws, they would still have been a great and mighty people—the rulers of the universe, and the wonder of the world.

Smith's three-fold descriptive of Noah's ark is "construction" in the "design" that is a "pattern" given by God.

1) construction
2) design
3) pattern

Then, Smith leads directly into the physical concept and construction of Solomon's temple in being like Noah's ark, given of God, whereby the architectural designs are given according to the construction, design, and pattern of God!

So when Joseph Smith (speaking through Nephi) says, "I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon", he means literally that the architectural design was according to the construction, design, and pattern of God; "whereby the manner of the construction was like unto" Solomon's temple.

So, defenders of the Book of Mormon today can say whatever they want and come up with whatever excuses suit their personal fancies but they cannot circumvent Smith's intent and what he actually claimed and maintained thereafter.

The defenders can go to hell!

[BlueFunk96]

There are major differences that should be pointed out between the voyage of Lehi and that of the Jaredites. One was by ship and the other by an account of ridiculous barges that make for an impossible voyage. There are extreme differences between the two types of voyages and yet the Jaredite voyage records the number of days but Nephi's account fails to keep track of the duration of time for the most important and epic journey of the entire Book of Mormon. Compare the following with the stories told in the Book of Mormon and see if something particular comes to mind with regards to the sailors recording their time at sea.

23 And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land.

11 And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water.

Note the differences between the two journeys:

Jaredite Voyage:

• they got aboard of their vessels or barges, and set forth into the sea

• wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind

• And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea

• their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters

• And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters

• they were driven forth; and no monster of the sea could break them, neither whale that could mar them

• And they did land upon the shore of the promised land

Lehi's Voyage:

• I had finished the ship

• it was good, and that the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine

• we should arise and go down into the ship

• we did put forth into the sea and were driven forth before the wind

• we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days

• there arose a great storm, yea, a great and terrible tempest, and we were driven back upon the waters

• the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm

• I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land

• after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land

What's the main difference between the crafts of the two voyages?

• SHIP

• BARGES

Which of the crafts would naturally provide easy means to keep track of the days of a voyage? Bear in mind, a ship is raised above the water to include a deck, open top, and a mast. The barges were something entirely different and were not upon topped having a deck. The ship was open to the world and night and day was like clock work. The darkness within the barges, however, was entirely different and keeping track of time would be challenging. It's inconceivable that Nephi did not record the number of days by carving a notch on the ship mast or deck rails of the ship. It makes no sense that the Book of Mormon fails to record the number of days when anyone with half a brain would simply carve notches and keep track of the voyage.

If they were truly blown along their journey by a fortuitous wind, even if it were the Pacific they were crossing, and not the Atlantic, it would have taken far less than 344 days. I believe someone took a raft from Tahiti to Chile, in, at most, 200 days, and crossings the other way have taken far less. It's only a matter of weeks, not months, to sail across the Pacific.

Though of all the impossibilities of the Jaredite migration, the time taken is probably the least implausible.

[Shulem]

13 Now here is wisdom, and the mind of the Lord — let the house be built, not after the manner of the world, for I give not unto you that ye shall live after the manner of the world;
14 Therefore, let it be built after the manner which I shall show unto three of you, whom ye shall appoint and ordain unto this power.
15 And the size thereof shall be fifty and five feet in width, and let it be sixty-five feet in length, in the inner court thereof.

So, just as Nephi's temple was constructed "after the manner" of Solomon's temple, so also was Smith's Kirtland temple constructed after the manner of the Lord's prescribed size of 55x65 ft.

1. We have no difficulty showing that Smith claimed Nephi's temple was built of stone, the same as Solomon's temple.
2. We have no difficulty showing that Smith claimed Nephi's temple was built at the same dimensions as Solomon's temple.

Folks, that is a one-two knock out punch!!

Thank you for being here,

Shulem