Jesus never sent anyone to a doctor or a hospital

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

I have repeatedly stated that this is not about religion or God.. it is about belief.

Yes, people believe all sorts of weird things... it is not because they are stupid it is because of what they were taught and understood, and believed to be true.

Do you think every Egyptian was stupid? How about the Knights Templar guys? How about all the people the world over who believe in the Noachian flood? How about people who believe there was a huge war where millions of people were destroyed in NY a few thousand years ago? How about people who believe God placed two people in Missouri six millennia ago to start the human race? How about people who believe God told Abraham to kill his son? How about people who believe a blessings from an LDS man is going to heal them? How about people who believe the entire human race is all going to come back alive someday? How about people who don't believe in Evolution? How about people who believe they will become Gods and Goddesses someday? How about suicide bombers who give their life for a heavenly reward?

People can be smart and believe things that are odd, unusual, irrational, illogical, even horrific to others. They believe these things not because they are stupid but because it is what they were taught and what they believed. True Belief is not about logic, it is about belief; not about stupidity but about faith.

You may think it is stupid but I hold to the belief (smile), that it is because it makes sense in their world, it fits with their world view, they were taught to have faith in their belief over what seems right, or true, or real; or their faith/belief is such that it melds with their reality.

People who believe they are right, who have faith in their "truth" will behave according to their beliefs. It is not about being stupid, it is because they believe they are right.

You seem unable or unwilling to recognize that True Belief is something other than stupidity.

Oh well... I'll leave it at that. :-)

~td~

[_Seven]

My mind reflects upon the several thousand 'aints that died during the exodus from Nauvoo.. Typhus, Cholera, exposure etc.

You know, the ones that are revered today in the Mormon church for their faithfulness.

A church is only as true or as good as it's members.

Yep. I was thinking the same thing.


Children look to us for protection. To knowingly reject the resources that God has given them here on earth (and He expects them to use what he has blessed them with) to heal their child, is child abuse. For the "Saints" to take their children who trusted them into a fatal situation (which could have easily been prevented) for a church, burying their frozen little bodies along the way, is no different. My children depend on me to do everything in my power to keep them safe and I couldn't live with myself if I betrayed that trust.

[_Seven]

Something tells me God is going to be much more interested in their having owned a coffee shop.

LOL!!!!

[_Jason Bourne]

I have repeatedly stated that this is not about religion or God.. it is about belief.

Really? What is religion but belief is something? But here are some things you said:

For the record I don't think these types of people are stupid just seriously mislead and deceived by religion and religious leaders.

This seems like you said these people are deceived by religion and by religious leaders. Did you mean something else?

I'm saying that true believers are not stupid, they just believe so strongly, that their beliefs endanger others including themselves. In other words, people do all sorts of horrific things when they believe they are following God or aligned with ultimate truth.

You say you are not making this about religion or God yet you did just that in the quote above.

I don't know about you but my years in the LDS church were filled with examples of faith healing, how faith can move mountains, how with faith in God, all things are possible, how faith is the reason for miracles, how faith is tested, etc. etc. etc. (These ideas are nOld Testament exclusive to the LDS church of course, I am just relating my experience).

Sounds like you are making this about religion here as well. Feel free to clarify.

I'm not saying I was ever taught to not use medicine but clearly there are those who believe having faith in God Trump's trusting doctors and medicine. The scriptures are filled with examples of those demonstrating faith allowing for miracles to occur.

This sounds like religion as well.

Yes, people believe all sorts of weird things... it is not because they are stupid it is because of what they were taught and understood, and believed to be true.

Belied in things that are strange, supernatural, require a level of faith or perhaps cannot be proven through the scientific method are one thing. But when this faith leads to the death of one's child when there are methods available to cure the child then irrationality is in control. I think that is stupidity.

Do you think every Egyptian was stupid? How about the Knights Templar guys?

Apples to oranges. I am talking about a foolish belief that led to the death of a child in THIS day and age.

How about all the people the world over who believe in the Noachian flood? How about people who believe there was a huge war where millions of people were destroyed in NY a few thousand years ago? How about people who believe God placed two people in Missouri six millennia ago to start the human race? How about people who believe God told Abraham to kill his son? How about people who believe a blessings from an LDS man is going to heal them? How about people who believe the entire human race is all going to come back alive someday? How about people who don't believe in Evolution? How about people who believe they will become Gods and Goddesses someday?

Religious beliefs are fine as long as they don't hurt someone else. If they do then the faith has led to irrationality. Blaming parent that let a child die simply because of their faith in this day and age is ludicrus. The parents can think, use their brain. This is simply a travesty. And you want to lay this irrationality on faith in God. Yes, this is what you are doing.

How about suicide bombers who give their life for a heavenly reward?

They are damn stupid. And I think deep down they know it.

People can be smart and believe things that are odd, unusual, irrational, illogical, even horrific to others. They believe these things not because they are stupid but because it is what they were taught and what they believed. True Belief is not about logic, it is about belief; not about stupidity but about faith.

And people can do horrific things without being or believing anything. To what do you attribute that to?

You may think it is stupid but I hold to the belief (smile), that it is because it makes sense in their world, it fits with their world view, they were taught to have faith in their belief over what seems right, or true, or real; or their faith/belief is such that it melds with their reality.

And you don't think such people are able to think, doubt, ask questions and so on? You were brought up LDS if I recall at least from fairly early point in your life. What led you to reject it? Did you think and analyze and come to a conclusion different from what you were indoctrinated with? You don't think others who end up doing bad and horrific things don't think some of this through before they do it? If yes and they decide to continue to do something so obviously bad what does that say?

You seem unable or unwilling to recognize that True Belief is something other than stupidity.

Oh well... I'll leave it at that. :-)

Look, just because I do not agree with your what I view as a flawed premise does not mean I am unwilling. You are as unwilling to be persuaded by my arguments as well. You may be wrong, or right. I may be as well.

[_Seven]

People have brains. If their religious beliefs end up in horrific results then they have become stupid about these beliefs. They choose whether or not the position they take is reasonable.

Growing up Mormon, I've seen how current LDS beliefs have the potential to be as dangerous as these parents and other faiths who have committed atrocities. Thankfully the bretheren have kept the modern day church in the mainstream and did away with the radical behavior of our ancestors. (polygamy, MMM, sacrificing children for the church, racism, oaths to avenge the blood of Joseph, putting Priesthood blessings above medicine....)

But here is the problem I currently see in Chapel Mormons today. If members are given counsel from the Prophet, most believe it is from God. Some will even take words spoken in a Larry King interview as doctrine. If they pray for personal confirmation/revelation on an issue, it is only to fall in agreement with the church. An opposing answer is not an option, and in their mind could only come from Satan. A Mormon who struggles with church doctrines that conflict with their conscience, assume it's their own lack of faith or unworthiness to receive the correct answer. That is why it took the US Government to stop polygamy, and it's also why it took until 1978 for blacks to receive the Priesthood.
So the potential of harm is still there because of faith in the Prophet, but luckily the modern day leaders avoid defining Mormon doctrine or revealing anything that is horrific now.

[_ludwigm]

People can be smart and believe things that are odd, unusual, irrational, illogical, even horrific to others. They believe these things not because they are stupid but because it is what they were taught and what they believed. True Belief is not about logic, it is about belief; not about stupidity but about faith.

You may think it is stupid but I hold to the belief (smile), that it is because it makes sense in their world, it fits with their world view, they were taught to have faith in their belief over what seems right, or true, or real; or their faith/belief is such that it melds with their reality.

People who believe they are right, who have faith in their "truth" will behave according to their beliefs. It is not about being stupid, it is because they believe they are right.

These are the thoughts I started this thread for.

If members are given counsel from the Prophet, most believe it is from God.

And it makes the church (I am sorry, The Church) dangerous.

[_ludwigm]

Some will even take words spoken in a Larry King interview as doctrine.

I must handle this even it is off to this thread.

If Gordon B. Hinckley, addressed by the reporter as President of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, prophet seer and revelator speaks words in a countrywide TV channel, it should be handled as doctrine. (I think the mentioning the interview is about him ...)
And apostle's words said from the pulpit during a general conference should be doctrine.


If Jack GBH. Streetwalker makes some statement in an interview (well, and by the way the subject of our report says he were some kind of leader of some kind of cult - or should we call them as sect), it is a private opinion. And it is similarly a private opinion if it was said in the lounge of the office or a chapel - recorded by any audience.

[_EAllusion]

If one has faith that God is the source of all good, then one has faith that medical advances are the result of blessings from heaven, and that to not avail oneself of the medical advances that God has blessed us with is tantamount to turning one's back on God, or if one is still facing him, spitting in his face.

This assumes medical technology is good, which begs the question against someone who is arguing it is not. If x-rays were a Satanic ploy to distract people form the real medicine, prayer, then it doesn't make much sense to call it a God-endorsed blessing from heaven. Or, more accurately, you can't call it good unless you want to call everything good. And that's not an argument you're interested in defending.