Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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DrW
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by DrW »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:20 pm
I do have a question for you guys with experience. I saw a couple of NTSB reports with a notation of something like: engine failure/flamethrough. Would that be the same as an engine fire?
The term "flamethrough" is unfamiliar. Sounds as if this might refer to the less elegantly designated tail pipe fire. When the crew has not followed the correct starting procedure for a jet engine, and fails to get ignition soon enough during the start-up, fuel can puddle in the combustion chambers (sort of like flooding the carburetor in older cars). This leads to spectacular amount of raw flames shooting out of the rear of the engine once ignition is finally achieved. A tail pipe flame can be dangerous for anyone standing too close, but rarely causes damage to the engine.

"Flame out" is when there is not sufficient fuel, or temperature, in the chambers to maintain combustion. In this case the engine fails to generate thrust. In flight, the crew can try for a restart using the ignitors in the combustion chamber. To help prevent possible flame outs from water ingestion in heavy rains, aircrews sometimes turn on the ignitors on to help ensure that fuel in the chamber burns. Ignitors are normally turned off at completion of the engine start-up procedure to increase their service life.

Then there are compressor stalls. Long story short, these occur when there is insufficient air flow at the jet engine intake, or when the compressor and turbine stages are not operating properly in relation to one another. This was a recurring problem for the early tri-jets (Lockheed 1011 Tri Star and 727) with jet air intakes on top of the fuselage at the rear of the aircraft. (This was addressed somewhat in the DC-10 design by mounting the engine well above the fuselage.) At high angles of attack, the body of the aircraft could interrupt airflow causing a compressor stall. Compressors stalls are followed by surges, experienced as a loud pop, or series of pops, when combustion resumes. Too many of these can damage the engine.

Finally, there are unrecoverable failures. These are most often due to loss of a turbine blade. These can be "contained" or "uncontained". Contained means that the Kevlar reinforced nacelle did its job and any debris that exited the engine did not do so through the nacelle and thus did not otherwise damage the aircraft. Uncontained means that debris leaves the engine nacelle, often damaging the wing or fuselage. The recent incident near Denver with debris falling into residential neighborhoods was a good example. In that case, the failure was accompanied by an engine fire fire that persisted well after the initial event, as shown on video taken by a passenger.

Perhaps Tapir Rider is familiar with "flamethrough".
Just now saw Res Ipsa's comment upthread about "flamethrough" vs. flame-out.
Last edited by DrW on Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

In one telling, Nelson stated that the plane landed in a field.

That seems a notable detail -- "field" as in not "airport."
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Res Ipsa »

DrW wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:01 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:20 pm
I do have a question for you guys with experience. I saw a couple of NTSB reports with a notation of something like: engine failure/flamethrough. Would that be the same as an engine fire?
The term "flamethrough" is unfamiliar. Sounds as if this might refer to the less elegantly designated tail pipe fire. When the crew has not followed the correct starting procedure for a jet engine, and fails to get ignition soon enough during the start-up, fuel can puddle in the combustion chambers (sort of like flooding the carburetor in older cars). This leads to spectacular amount of raw flames shooting out of the rear of the engine once ignition is finally achieved. A tail pipe flame can be dangerous for anyone standing too close, but rarely causes damage to the engine.

"Flame out" is when there is not sufficient fuel, or temperature, in the chambers to maintain combustion. In this case the engine fails to generate thrust. In flight, the crew can try for a restart using the ignitors in the combustion chamber. To help prevent possible flame outs from water ingestion in heavy rains, aircrews sometimes turn on the ignitors on to help ensure that fuel in the chamber burns. Ignitors are normally turned off at completion of the engine start-up procedure to increase their service life.

Then there are compressor stalls. Long story short, these occur when there is insufficient air flow at the jet engine intake, or when the compressor and turbine stages are not operating properly in relation to one another. This was a recurring problem for the early tri-jets (Lockheed 1011 Tri Star and 727) with jet air intakes on top of the fuselage at the rear of the aircraft. (This was addressed somewhat in the DC-10 design by mounting the engine well above the fuselage.) At high angles of attack, the body of the aircraft could interrupt airflow causing a compressor stall. Compressors stalls are followed by surges, experienced as a loud pop, or series of pops, when combustion resumes. Too many of these can damage the engine.

Finally, there are unrecoverable failures. These are most often due to loss of a turbine blade. These can be "contained" or "uncontained". Contained means that the Kevlar reinforced nacelle did its job and any debris that exited the engine did not do so through the nacelle and thus did not otherwise damage the aircraft. Uncontained means that debris leaves the engine nacelle, often damaging the wing or fuselage. The recent incident near Denver with debris falling into residential neighborhoods was a good example. In that case, the failure was accompanied by an engine fire fire that persisted well after the initial event, as shown on video taken by a passenger.

Perhaps Tapir Rider is familiar with "flamethrough".
Just now saw Res Ipsa's comment upthread about "flamethrough" vs. flame-out.
Thanks, Dr. W. I did some poking around and finally found the official taxonomy guides used by the NTSB. "Flameout" is used as a type of Power Plant In Flight Shutdown. It is not treated as a "fire" in the official taxonomy. The difference is important under the regs (https://ecfr.io/Title-49/Section-830.5), as a flameout of one engine does not require NTSB notification, while an engine fire does. I found pictures of flameouts that showed visible flame trailing the engine. If occurred on the flight was a flameout in one engine, it does not appear that any NTSB reports would be required under the post-1988 regulations.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Is there a reasonable reason why an emergency landing in a field wouldn't merit a report in 1976?

- Doc
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by tapirrider »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:09 pm
What does a "flameout" of a engine look like?
Like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axQ7A84fY-U
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:00 am
I signed up for a free trial at newspapers.com and have been searching the millard county chronicle archives, and any news from millard county, for the last hour. There's no mention of Nelson's Big Adventure.

- Doc
To me, this is the biggest potential evidence against it.

Up until about 10 years ago (when the paper unfortunately finally went defunct), my parents subscribed to a newspaper from a county in Utah a little bit smaller than Millard. I think it was published every two weeks (If I recall correctly).

Very often, something as simple as an out-of-town family visiting relatives would warrant a few sentences (if not a full paragraph) in the happenings.

Car crashes, or 4-wheeler accidents would almost always get a teaser on the front page. Anything that involved dispatch of any of the (volunteer) fire departments would get front page billing, and a picture. An airplane making an emergency landing in a field would have definitely made it into the paper, and almost certainly front page.
Last edited by Doctor Steuss on Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 pm
Is there a reasonable reason why an emergency landing in a field wouldn't merit a report in 1976?

- Doc
Right? I would think a commercial plane making an emergency field landing with a blown-out engine would make local news, if not national. But evidently there was only 1 witness to these events.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Ignore... I can't tell the difference between the quote and edit feature evidently. :|
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

It could have been a Skywest plane. According to Wikipedia, Skywest began servicing SLC to SGU in 1972.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyWest_Airlines
According to the airline's website, at its inception SkyWest was operating all flights in the early 1970s with small propeller-driven, piston-engine aircraft, including:[10]

Piper Cherokee 140 – two passenger seats
Piper Cherokee Arrow – four passenger seats
Piper Cherokee Six – six passenger seats
Piper Navajo – eight passenger seats
Piper Navajo Chieftain – nine passenger seats
Here is a flight map showing the routes. SGU was serviced via Cedar City. So maybe Nelson's miracle happened on the first hop to Cedar City???

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... qg75-1.jpg
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

This page shows departing flights from SLC in 1975. It appears only 2 options might have been possible:
http://www.departedflights.com/SLC75intro.html
1) Sky West (via Cedar City)
2) Hughes Airwest (to Cedar City, unclear if they had a connection to SGU)


And this page shows departing flights from St George in 1979. Only one option: Sky West -- the route to SLC via Cedar City.
http://www.departedflights.com/SGU79intro.html

So it appears that if Nelson's flight originated in SLC, then it had to be Sky West, via Cedar City. Based on the appearance that only Sky West flew in/out of SGU.

Here are the detailed flight schedules to St George:
http://www.departedflights.com/SGU79p1.html
Last edited by Dr Moore on Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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