To Mr Scratch

[_Daniel Peterson]

Do you deny saying that you hoped HBO would lose income due to LDS objections over the upcoming Big Love episode?

I said I wouldn't mind it if they took a discernible hit.

I feel the same way when companies engage in unethical behavior or trade with tyrannies. Does that mean that I lust for their employees to lose jobs and income? Hardly.

That such might happen is, of course, obvious. But, if my wishing that Company X learn a lesson for its (to me) bad behavior is precisely equivalent to wishing that employees of Company X suffer, wouldn't it also be precisely equivalent to wishing that employees of its competitor, Company Y, prosper as it increases its market share relative to company X?

And if you really want to push it, by your logic would your investing in Company A and hoping that its stocks go up in value translate into hoping that its competitor, Company B, lose market share and that employees of Company B lose jobs and income? And yet, if Ford outsells GM, or Coca Cola has a good year at the expense of Pepsi, that's exactly what's going to happen at GM and Pepsi. Are investors, by definition, "vindictive and vengeful" toward companies that compete with the ones in which they own shares?

When I used to help with estimates and bids for my family's construction business in California, we were competing with other businesses for those jobs. If we got the job, they wouldn't. If they didn't, that meant less work for their employees. Was it "vengeful and vindictive" for me to hope that we won the bid? Did I hate the people we were competing against? Did I hate the employees of other companies? Scarcely. We often went out to breakfast and lunch together. My father regularly golfed with them.

Suppose you're a fan of Baseball Team 1, which is playing in the World Series against Baseball Team 2. You want Baseball Team 1 to win. But fans of Baseball Team 2 want it to win. And some of them will be really sad if it doesn't. Are you a vicious person who seeks to cause pain to fans of Baseball Team 2 just because you're rooting for your team?

Suppose I'm a U.S. soldier fighting against the German army in the battle for the Rhine. I want my country to win the war. I want Germany and the Nazis to lose. Does that mean that I wish harm to specific German soldiers? That I actually hate Private Günter Schmidt, the farm kid from Bavaria, and the sheet metal worker Corporal Hans Freiling, from Essen? Were all American troops in World War II vicious, vindictive, and vengeful?

Your ingenious ways of imputing ill-will to me are really pretty sophistical.

Or do you deny that your commentary thereof was "gloating"?

Absolutely I do.

Anyway, as I've repeatedly said, I don't think that HBO's behavior on this matter is going to hurt it at all -- so what possible reason could I have to "gloat" over the situation, even if I were so inclined? As usual, your claim makes no sense.

[_The Nehor]

No. Obviously, I would never do such a thing, even though I sometimes think it's worth asking: Do TBMs like you actually value your Church membership and reputation?

I'm disappointed that you won't. Yes, I value it.

You claim that it would all be some "big laugh," but I think we all know that a very small bit of malicious gossip can do a huge amount of damage within the culture of the Church.

When I worked at a Credit Counseling agency just out of High School we had a nutjob who would constantly mail threats, 'damning' information, and false accusations to our President regarding whatever employee he'd talked to in the last week. They were so inane that he could tell immediately they weren't true. We would read them for a laugh at company parties. I know my Stake President. If you made the accusations plausible he might ask to talk but I have a positive reputation from the things I do to help out all the time. However, when they're as illogical and insane as the rubbish you cook up on no evidence within a few minutes we'd both be laughing.

Believe me: a person with a vendetta once mailed something to the Stake President of somebody close to me and it caused a great deal of pain and grief.

Was it true?

So, go ahead and yuk it up, Nehor.

Okay, that's what I do.

[_antishock8]

Yes, but at least he was never part of destroying someone's reputation and employment.

Nor was I.

I have neither the power nor the inclination to do such a thing.

Do you deny the "whisper campaign"?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Do you deny the "whisper campaign"?

Yes.

There was no such campaign.

[_antishock8]

Do you deny the "whisper campaign"?

Yes.

There was no such campaign.

You never discussed Mr. Quinn's sexuality with anyone else?

[_The Nehor]

My general decency, compassion, and gentlemanly behavior had emboldened you. You feel more confident in the fact that, unlike you, I don't do things to people in real life.

LOL

[_Daniel Peterson]

You never discussed Mr. Quinn's sexuality with anyone else?

In conversations over many years, the subject has come up maybe half a dozen times. I was, if I'm not mistaken, never the one to bring it up. And it was never discussed for very long.

(Those here who have actual human relationships off line will know what "conversations" are.)

[_Mister Scratch]

You never discussed Mr. Quinn's sexuality with anyone else?

He did, antishock. He would tell the people on MAD/FAIR that he believed that "Quinn's sexual orientation was known to his then-Stake President." DCP would say this in the context of a discussion on whether or not Quinn was ex'ed for his historical writings. It seemed clear that DCP was attempting to get the TBM posters on MAD/FAIR to believe that Quinn was ex'ed for some sort of sexual sin. When you pile this on top of his many assertions that Quinn's writing is "untrustworthy," it's pretty easy to see the outlines of a smear campaign.

[_Daniel Peterson]

He did, antishock. He would tell the people on MAD/FAIR that he believed that "Quinn's sexual orientation was known to his then-Stake President." DCP would say this in the context of a discussion on whether or not Quinn was ex'ed for his historical writings. It seemed clear that DCP was attempting to get the TBM posters on MAD/FAIR to believe that Quinn was ex'ed for some sort of sexual sin.

I think it's simplistic and perhaps even ideologically-driven-disingenuousness to insist that Quinn's excommunication was purely for his historical writing.

I would rather not talk about the subject, but I also don't feel comfortable sitting silently by while things are said that I believe to be untrue. I've never expanded upon the subject, but I have said, when discussants were clearly making unjustifable assumptions about the excommunication, that Quinn's sexuality -- an open secret among Mormon studies people, believers and non-believers alike -- might well have been a factor.

When you pile this on top of his many assertions that Quinn's writing is "untrustworthy," it's pretty easy to see the outlines of a smear campaign.

It's no more a smear of a historian to suggest that his work is unreliable than it is a smear of a novelist to say that his writing is wooden, or a smear of a composer to say that his compositions lack subtlety, or a smear of a dramatist to say that his characters are unbelievable, or a smear of a musician to say that his performance was lackluster.

Such opinions are ethically permissible. Such judgments are not immoral. In fact, they're virtually inevitable.

[_Mister Scratch]

Do you deny saying that you hoped HBO would lose income due to LDS objections over the upcoming Big Love episode?

I said I wouldn't mind it if they took a discernible hit.

Good. Admitting the truth is the first step.

I feel the same way when companies engage in unethical behavior or trade with tyrannies. Does that mean that I lust for their employees to lose jobs and income? Hardly.

Wow. Look at the analogies here. Where, by the way, did I ever say you "lust for their employees to lose jobs and income"? I merely pointed out that your motives seem to be vindictive and vengeful in nature. Nothing you've said here does anything to contradict that. Instead, you went on---at some length, I might add---in an effort to justify your decidedly un-Christlike emotions.

That such might happen is, of course, obvious. But, if my wishing that Company X learn a lesson for its (to me) bad behavior is precisely equivalent to wishing that employees of Company X suffer, wouldn't it also be precisely equivalent to wishing that employees of its competitor, Company Y, prosper as it increases its market share relative to company X?

Ah, okay. You were actually wishing that Cinemax and Starz! would see in increase in profits. That makes perfect sense. I guess you weren't being vindictive after all!

And if you really want to push it, by your logic would your investing in Company A and hoping that its stocks go up in value translate into hoping that its competitor, Company B, lose market share and that employees of Company B lose jobs and income? And yet, if Ford outsells GM, or Coca Cola has a good year at the expense of Pepsi, that's exactly what's going to happen at GM and Pepsi. Are investors, by definition, "vindictive and vengeful" toward companies that compete with the ones in which they own shares?

A pretty big stretch, Prof. P.

When I used to help with estimates and bids for my family's construction business in California, we were competing with other businesses for those jobs. If we got the job, they wouldn't. If they didn't, that meant less work for their employees. Was it "vengeful and vindictive" for me to hope that we won the bid? Did I hate the people we were competing against? Did I hate the employees of other companies? Scarcely. We often went out to breakfast and lunch together. My father regularly golfed with them.

So, you'll be dining with the creators of Big Love? Will you tell them ahead of time that you hoped for the cancellation of their show? Your MAD post wasn't talking in any way about healthy competition.

Suppose you're a fan of Baseball Team 1, which is playing in the World Series against Baseball Team 2. You want Baseball Team 1 to win. But fans of Baseball Team 2 want it to win. And some of them will be really sad if it doesn't. Are you a vicious person who seeks to cause pain to fans of Baseball Team 2 just because you're rooting for your team?

Another silly analogy. The Church and HBO are hardly in competition with each other.

Suppose I'm a U.S. soldier fighting against the German army in the battle for the Rhine. I want my country to win the war. I want Germany and the Nazis to lose. Does that mean that I wish harm to specific German soldiers? That I actually hate Private Günter Schmidt, the farm kid from Bavaria, and the sheet metal worker Corporal Hans Freiling, from Essen? Were all American troops in World War II vicious, vindictive, and vengeful?

You wish HBO ill for vindictive reasons. Do you hope that Big Love's writers get fired? Or that the show gets terminated?