Former Oklahoma City Temple President Apostatized

[_harmony]

By way of contrast, while I think Rabbinic Judaism and Trinitarian Christianity are false, I do not believe they are frauds.

What brand of Christianity do you currently subscribe to, CC?

[_asbestosman]

I view the Old Testament more as backdrop for the New Testament. For me, it is secondary scripture and is to be subordinated to the New Testament. I do not expect the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews to get everything correct before the advent of Jesus Christ.

Or after if you're willing to drop psuedo-Pauline epistles.

I wonder what you'd say if I told you I treat the Journal of Discourses (which you love to quote) the way you treat the Old Testament. I also wonder what you'd say if I told you that I don't accept all psuedo-Joseph Smith stories about polygamy, etc. You'd probably say to me what everyone else has been saying to you on this thread regarding things from the Bible.

Funny that.

P.S. Happy Pi day (and out of curiosity, what is your mathematical background? I'm a computer/electrical engineer by training and profession, but I read math books for fun).

[_antishock8]

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

So. God intervenes for Isaac, but doesn't for the chick. Nice. Nice religion you have there.

Thus sayeth the Lord:

"The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

Well, looks like West Coast's fraudulent God is at it again... You know... With the burning...

"If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." -- Leviticus 20:14

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." -- Leviticus 21:9

"Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." -- Genesis 38:24

"He that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath. ... And Joshua ... took Achan ... and his sons, and his daughters ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire." -- Joshua 7:15, 24-25

But I'm sure it's the PEOPLE doing that wickedness, and not West Coast's god... Right?

"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. -- Leviticus 10:1-2

"And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp." -- Numbers 11:1

"And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." -- Numbers 16:35

"They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God ... For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. ... They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust." -- Deuteronomy 32:21-24

"Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." -- Psalm 21:9

"Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame." -- Isaiah 47:13-14

"If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty." -- 2 Kings 1:10, 12

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; As the vine tree among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from one fire, and another fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. -- Ezekiel 15:6-7

"Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left." -- Isaiah 24:6

"And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire." -- Isaiah 33:12

"I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire." -- Jeremiah 49:2

Oooooooo Kaaaaaaay... But I'm sure West Coast's god gets tired of all the burning... Right? Right?

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6

"The Lord Jesus ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ... who shall be punished with everlasting destruction." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God ...he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." -- Revelation 14:10-11

"The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." -- Revelation 21:8

Wow. That just sounds like a real PEACH of a religion there, West Coast. A real...

Patently absurd fraud. You are a pot calling Mormonism a kettle. These stories, fables, bloody mandates, and chilling doctrines are the most despicable thing I've ever read. Bar none. Bar. None. It's sick. And so are you for believing this tripe. Shame on you, West Coast. Shame on you.

[_antishock8]

Ok. So in West Coast's world, the Mormons, da Joos, and most of Christianity are "demonstrable frauds" unlike his airtight religion, whatever it is he's made up in his head. Phew. And I thought discussing Mormonism was akin to nailing pudding to a wall...

No, blockhead. Fraud implies intentional deceit, which certainly characterizes Holy Joe's religion. By way of contrast, while I think Rabbinic Judaism and Trinitarian Christianity are false, I do not believe they are frauds.

Jesus Freak. A fraud is a knowing misrepresentation of the truth, or concealment of a material fact to induce another to act to his detriment. Your faith, and I can only assume your church (because you're too much of a coward to let me know what church you attend), fits this description nicely. You are, Sir, a hypocrite.

[_Calculus Crusader]

By way of contrast, while I think Rabbinic Judaism and Trinitarian Christianity are false, I do not believe they are frauds.

What brand of Christianity do you currently subscribe to, CC?

None that is extant. I share some beliefs with the Watchtower but I am not a JW and have no interest in becoming one.

[_Calculus Crusader]

Jesus Freak. A fraud is a knowing misrepresentation of the truth, or concealment of a material fact to induce another to act to his detriment. Your faith, and I can only assume your church (because you're too much of a coward to let me know what church you attend), fits this description nicely.

Blockhead,

Go ahead and add that delusion to your stockpile.

[_Calculus Crusader]

Patently absurd fraud. You are a pot calling Mormonism a kettle. These stories, fables, bloody mandates, and chilling doctrines are the most despicable thing I've ever read. Bar none. Bar. None. It's sick. And so are you for believing this tripe. Shame on you, West Coast. Shame on you.

They have shots for rabies, you know.

[_Calculus Crusader]

I wonder what you'd say if I told you I treat the Journal of Discourses (which you love to quote) the way you treat the Old Testament.

The Journal of Discourses contains the very words of "prophet" Brigham Young and Mormon apostles who were instrumental to the "restoration." It makes no sense for you to view the words of your contemporary "prophets" in the same way as I view the Old Testament, which was old in Jesus' day.

I also wonder what you'd say if I told you that I don't accept all psuedo-Joseph Smith stories about polygamy, etc. You'd probably say to me what everyone else has been saying to you on this thread regarding things from the Bible.

Unfortunately for you, the stories about Smith and Young are corroborated by Mormons as well as their critics. The citation from Jedediah Grant's sermon is a fine example.

Funny that.

The only thing funny about it is that you think the situations are analogous.

P.S. Happy Pi day

Thanks.

(and out of curiosity, what is your mathematical background? I'm a computer/electrical engineer by training and profession, but I read math books for fun).

I have a bachelor's degree in math and a master's degree in statistics. In addition to probability and statistics classes, I have had classes in ODEs, PDEs, complex variables, and real analysis.

[_antishock8]

Patently absurd fraud. You are a pot calling Mormonism a kettle. These stories, fables, bloody mandates, and chilling doctrines are the most despicable thing I've ever read. Bar none. Bar. None. It's sick. And so are you for believing this tripe. Shame on you, West Coast. Shame on you.

They have shots for rabies, you know.

Evolution dog says,



Arrrr! Your faith and whatever church you attend is uglier than I am. Arrr!

[_asbestosman]

The Journal of Discourses contains the very words of "prophet" Brigham Young and Mormon apostles who were instrumental to the "restoration." It makes no sense for you to view the words of your contemporary "prophets" in the same way as I view the Old Testament, which was old in Jesus' day.

What difference does age make? They didn't have tape recorders back in the days of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. While they did have shorthand, it's not perfect. Human error comes up even today with transcription. I consider the words of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to be old in our day--not worthless, but old and sometimes suspect especially since I do not believe in infallibility for either of those men. That's why I believe in the need for modern, living prophets.

Unfortunately for you, the stories about Smith and Young are corroborated by Mormons as well as their critics. The citation from Jedediah Grant's sermon is a fine example.

And you don't think they same can be said about "pseudo" Pauline epistles or various parts of the Old Testament you conveniently ignore? Forgive me if I'm not convinced by your position any more than you are by that of your critics.

I have a bachelor's degree in math and a master's degree in statistics. In addition to probability and statistics classes, I have had classes in ODEs, PDEs, complex variables, and real analysis.

Awesome. We'll have to find a good religious to discuss from a mathematical point of view some time. I like to talk about things such as Hilbert's Hotel and the infinite with implications for God, what the undecidablity of The Axiom of Choice implies (if anything), and what implications non-Euclidean geometry could have for philosphy.