religious knowledge (of Dart)

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_solomarineris
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _solomarineris »

This might come as a disappointment, but I do not have any religious claims to make aside from my belief that a God exists. Why should I feel obligated to go beyond the evidence?


I'll tell ya, you're a joke...
Do you work in a MLM, marketing, selling pseudoscience or something?
Suppose you come to my medical practice and sell me machine; how would you introduce your machine?
"Why should I feel obligated to go beyond the evidence?

would you use this sentence?
I'd tell you right away; get the f**k outta my office.
You have no evidence. Use your brain.
_EAllusion
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _EAllusion »

Then in a broader sense all theists are creationists.


No. One does not need to think there exists scientific evidence that life or some aspect of it was designed to be a theist. Theists generally think life was designed, but thinking this does not require one to think there's scientific evidence of it.
But creatonism has a negative connotation because it is generally associated with those who reject evolution, believe the world is 6,000 years old, take the Bible as a science book, etc.


Those who take creationism to refer to a particular vein of young earth creationism just aren't familiar with it's complexity. You clearly buy into ID arguments that are, quite literally, arguments that used to be called "scientific creationism" that simply were relabeled for political purposes. Heck, you've used arguments emphasized generally in creationist literature labeled as such that don't figure as much into more modern ID writing, such as the aforementioned half a wing, Hoyle's "calculations", etc.

Your views on evolution shift all the time, and it's hard to pin you down here. Needless to say, the Kevin of "what good is half a wing" was not in any meaningful sense a believer in evolutionary theory. For what it is worth, a standard creationist position is to say they accept evolution, but not "Darwinism" where "Darwinism" in this case really just refers to the basic tenets of evolutionary biology.

Here I'm going to recommend the generally accepted best work on the subject:

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/NUMC ... ow=reviews

Seriously. Read it.

Would you call Antony Flew a creationist


To the extent that man still has his wits about him, yes. He's specifically cited the influence of Gerald Schroeder - an explicit creationist - and used classic creationist abiogenic arguments for goodness sake. You've used them as well.
_harmony
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _harmony »

Tarski wrote:I'll think things are OK when an atheist has a 1 in 10 chance of becoming president.


Is this what it really boils down to... that an atheist isn't able to be elected president? Big frickin' deal. Get in line. A woman isn't able to be elected president either! 1 in 10 is better odds than anyone has ever given a woman.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_EAllusion
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _EAllusion »

harmony wrote:
Tarski wrote:I'll think things are OK when an atheist has a 1 in 10 chance of becoming president.


Is this what it really boils down to... that an atheist isn't able to be elected president? Big frickin' deal. Get in line. A woman isn't able to be elected president either! 1 in 10 is better odds than anyone has ever given a woman.
In contemporary politics, women have a much larger change of holding the presidency than men. Heck, last election cycle the prohibitive favorite was a woman. An open atheist basically has zero chance of being elected and would be lucky to hold the office of dogcatcher. Atheists are one of the most openly distrusted/despised demographics in America. Accusing a politician of being merely friendly to them is itself considered a major attack.
_Tarski
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _Tarski »

harmony wrote:
Tarski wrote:I'll think things are OK when an atheist has a 1 in 10 chance of becoming president.


Is this what it really boils down to... that an atheist isn't able to be elected president? Big frickin' deal. Get in line. A woman isn't able to be elected president either! 1 in 10 is better odds than anyone has ever given a woman.

Hilary had better odds than that. You miss the point anyway.
Last edited by W3C [Validator] on Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_EAllusion
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _EAllusion »

For further examples of Dart's views on evolution see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6057&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
_marg

Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _marg »

dart wrote:In any event, it is perfectly clear Einstein was much closer to theism than atheism. He absolutely hated to be called an atheist. He only opposed being lumped into specific religons.


I don't think it's perfectly clear at all. I consider deism closer to atheism than to theism when the "theism" refers refers to a God which interferes and/or communicates with mankind. Religious organizations can not develop around a deistic sort of God. There is no reason to worship such a God, pray, fight over, assert various claims associated about what God wants, nor could such a God be claimed to be involved in the creation of sacred texts.

So an atheist would have little to be critical of with regards to a deist belief. For practical purposes they essentially have similar affect on people's behaviors. Since Einstein didn't believe in a God which interfered in the affairs of people, he was a deist, that is if he had any belief in an actually existing God entity.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jumping back in here...

Some Schmo wrote:
It doesn't surprise me in the least that dart thinks his family has extrasensory perception



I fully believe what dart shared regarding his grandmother. I've had 3 similar experiences myself. All three involved a type of prediction. Two involved a "vision" that I'm not sure how to describe except that I saw an animated scene in my head and was fully awake at the time. All three involved people close to me and while two may be questionable, one isn't at all questionable.

Sorry to be so cryptic, as I stated they involved people close to me.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Some Schmo
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _Some Schmo »

EAllusion wrote:For further examples of Dart's views on evolution see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6057&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Heh... that was an interesting thread. I just got about four pages into it and couldn't take dart's arrogant ignorance any more. I was actually embarrassed for him. The thread is almost a year old, and he's still talking like that after hundreds of smack-downs. Some people never learn.

Jersey Girl wrote:I fully believe what dart shared regarding his grandmother. I've had 3 similar experiences myself. All three involved a type of prediction. Two involved a "vision" that I'm not sure how to describe except that I saw an animated scene in my head and was fully awake at the time. All three involved people close to me and while two may be questionable, one isn't at all questionable.

Yes, thousands of people have reported similar things, yet I remain unimpressed. The fact is, I've personally had experiences like that. It's not that it doesn't happen; it's that what happens in erroneously explained.

The difference is that I do not consider strong hunches that happen to pan out to be supernatural events. As marg was saying, people will remember and place an inordinate amount of stock in the hits, and dismiss the misses with barely a second thought. Given that the number of misses will invariably far outnumber the hits, it's easy to remain unimpressed by those hits.

Sure, it's fun to think "I had a paranormal experience." Who doesn't want to think that? It's good for the ego, makes for fun conversation, and there is always a believing audience somewhere. But the gratification from that explanation does not add one iota of truth value to it.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: religious knowledge (of Dart)

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Some Schmo wrote:The difference is that I do not consider strong hunches that happen to pan out to be supernatural events.


I'm not talking about "strong hunches", Schmo. I'm talking about events involving visions. Animated visions. Not a hunch. Not a "I have a feeling this or that will happen, or I have a feeling that something is wrong". Not that.

Nothing to do with feel good ego.

I'd be glad to share one with you off the board.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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